What 'controls' the clubface

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by rwh
Yes. Mr. Kelley's preference was for Pivot Controlled Hands because on the grounds of greater precision.

I'm sure you meant Hands Controlled Pivot, Bob, and the edit will be forthcoming!

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Originally posted by njmp2
[Interesting we haven't seen Brian chime in on this yet.

That's an interesting definition. Could we not say that the rubberized grip controls the rest of the club? Could we not say the shaft controls the clubhead and clubface? Could we not say the apoxy holding the head on the shaft in fact controls the clubhead? Indeed ALL these things are connected through diferent forces.. and part of this connection is the hand, wrist, forearm, elbows, shoulders, torso.. the entire human structure. So by this logic now we can say EVERYTHING in the human body controls the clubface, and everything in the clubs contstruction controls the clubface.

No, a rubber grip can’t control the clubhead, silly, but close, the hands holding it can. Those things are inanimate objects - brainless -need the hand to control them

quote:
But when it comes right down to it, the absolute highest body part that directly correlates with the alignment of the leading edge of the clubface is the forearm. Once you go above the elbow, the body can move in a nearly infinate number of ways and not effect the clubface alignment. It is not until the forearms (can also be done with the upper arm rotating, but more on that later.. I'm working from the clubface up) are rotationally active does the alignment of the face change relative to the plane of the swing. It could be said that the most adventageous, and mechanically effective method of swinging the club would be to not allow for ANY forearm rotation (or roll) at all. It should simply "orbit" around the pivot of the body. I certainly would not be opposed to that point of view... and in fact I advocate it, but do not usually construct my lessons around that particular terminology.

You say that the shoulder is a hinge. I would not disagree with that. In fact you can rotate the upper arm (via the shoulder) which would effect the forearm.. thus doing the same thing as I stated in the forearm argument. But the forearm CAN rotate independent of the uppper arm. The HAND cannot rotate independent of the forearm. And THAT is the thrust of my argument. Yet you seem to be avoiding that particular argument and instead arguing that I fail to understand basic motion.

Phew... lets see, no, no, and no. The hand can "turn" to the right and "roll" to the left while holding the club. The fact the forearm rotates doesn't give the forearm the control. Stop - you know nothing about hinging. Weak guesses.

quote:
Now let me clear something up. I DO NOT teach positions. That is extreamly far from the truth. I teach one motion. I do not view the swing as a series of static points strung together. Instead I view it as a backward and forward circular motion with the club. And in my world, circles are not drawn by making an infinate number of dots on a page. Circles are drawn in ONE motion either clockwise or counter clockwise. That is a very basic principle of my teaching.. but it's slightly getting off track of the original post.

Of course they are not drawn that way..but the points still exist as do radiuses and diameters – straight things as part of a circle. But didn't you write somewhere that the golf swing isn't a circle?

quote:
"TGM is based on hands control pivot"
I could be wrong, but was there not a part of Homer Kelly's observations that allowed for pivot controlled hands? Quite honestly I think it can be done either way, and even a combination of both. Much like the two examples I give my students frequently. In one instance you have a child on a swingset. The child moves the swing. In another model you have a pendulum where the swing has applied force near the axis.

Homer said that you can have a pivot control swing, but it is inferior and has no real use in TGM. It has only one paragraph in the book - guess it isn't worth much.

quote:
Now if we want to get technical to the Nth degree.. in the golf swing the hands themselves cannot move without muscular movement in the arm... thus completely nullifying any notion that the HANDS control the pivot.. instead the muscles in the arms control the pivot. But that really doesn't help anyone by trying to challenge such a basic fundamental principle of TGM, now does it? But if you insist on doing so I'll be happy to step aside as a bio-technician explains human anatomy.

Once again, the hands hold the club, they have last say on what the clubface does. The forearms have the muscles, so does my legs, truck, back, stomach which all move the club, but the hands use that to control. The hands are one of the most incredible instruments given to the humam race, don't waste them.

quote:
Ok, that last bit probably sounded a bit smug, but there is an element of truth to it.

Nope not smug at all. You are preventing yourself the chance to really set yourself apart from other instructors. If you took half a second to step back and learn basic hinge action, or the flying wedges, basic pressure point and power accumulators, you will be a much smarter and a much better golf instructor. This forum, besides Brian who has much to teach anyone, the number one authority on the golf swing, TGM or no TGM, in Holenone. Learn from him with being a smug know it all- you are wasting a GREAT opportunity. You from what I see on the swing you posted are in TGM terms, a "swinger," (12-2-0) horizontal hinging all the way. There is a swing called 'Hitting" (12-1-0 double check, no book at work and it isn't what some golfers think of hitting) and it uses no forearm rotation at all. None. It is very powerful push of the right arm- a wondeful swing, great with short irons and driver. Try to stop down grading TGM and learn from it - what could it hurt? Who could it help?

I'll just do this and let this whole thing die.

quote:Originally posted by holenone

One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer
I'll just do this and let this whole thing die.

quote:Originally posted by holenone

One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

Which is what I suggested umpteen posts ago.

Thank you.

Next anti-TGM topic, please.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by rwh
Yes. Mr. Kelley's preference was for Pivot Controlled Hands because on the grounds of greater precision.

I'm sure you meant Hands Controlled Pivot, Bob, and the edit will be forthcoming!

Teacher:

My error has been corrected. Thank you for catching the mistake.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by rwh
Yes. Mr. Kelley's preference was for Pivot Controlled Hands because on the grounds of greater precision.

I'm sure you meant Hands Controlled Pivot, Bob, and the edit will be forthcoming!

Teacher:

My error has been corrected. Thank you for catching the mistake.

Thank you, Bob, for this and your many other excellent posts. As usual, when the Scientific Facts you present come head-to-head with the Personal Opinions of others, your Facts stand.

 

[ukhacker]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by ukhacker
If the left arm may rotate or swivel then why is swivelling not clubface control? Also if we use hinge action and swivel then why is the hinge responsible for clubface control seeing that the swivel has rotated the face?

Hinge action has been defined as the blade of a hinge remaining perpendicular to its Plane of Rotation. How does this relate to Horizontal, Vertical and Angled Hinge actions?

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

Our cat was at the vet, and I had only ten minutes to pick her up. Hence, the formatting now supplied in this 'edit' was omitted. Sorry for the initial sloppiness, but I can assure you, our cat appreciates it!
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ukhacker,

Here are the answers to your questions in the order asked:

1. Pre-Impact, the Left Wrist Action (10-18) includes a Swivel (for Swingers only). Swingers Swivel twice -- first in Start Up and then in its mirrored Release. Hitters use only the Single Wrist Action of 10-10-C-2.

For both Hitters and Swingers, the Hinge Action controls the Clubface from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through. At the end of the Follow Through -- also for both Hitters and Swingers -- the Finish Swivel once again takes control and rotates the Clubface On Plane.

2. The Flat Left Wrist duplicates the Hinge Blade. By holding it vertical to one of the three Basic Planes of Motion, you impart that same Motion to the Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Horizontal Plane produces Horizontal Hinge Action and a Closing (Only) Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Vertical Plane produces Vertical Hinge Action and a Laying Back (Only) Clubface. Holding the Left Wrist Vertical to the Angled Plane produces Angled Hinge Action and a Clubface that simultaneously Closes and Lays Back.

This is what I don't understand. You talk about a hinge and the hinge remaining pendicular to its Plane of Rotation, and give an example of a simple hinge on a door, which is easy to follow. We can see the entire motion of the hinge back and forward. Then you talk about hinge action controlling the clubface from impact to follow-through. I just don't get this. The hinge in the door was controlling the door in its entire motion. Are we saying that in the golf stroke we suddenly apply a hinge when we get to impact and remove it when we get to follow through?

Seeing that when we take our address position and our spine is angled over the ball, won't we always use angled hinging and hold the left wrist vertical to the angled plane? I don't see how we can apply the other hinge actions because of our spine angle.

Excuse my naivety, but this is something I am desperate to understand.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

ukhacker....run over to chuck evans forums and holenone (aka Yoda) has a post about how to understand the different hinge actions. Some fog should be lifted by reading through the pages

 

[njmp2]

Ringer, give it a try. Seriously, this stuff works, Yoda is the best and you can only be a better instructor in the end. Everyone on this forum knows how lucky they are having Yoda around here.
Steve, lets shake forearms and but this past us. Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Ringer]

njmp2: From what I'm constantly told, I'm already trying it without knowing it.