What 'controls' the clubface

[drewitgolf]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by dclaryjr

How do you approach working with someone for the first time in regards to swinging/hitting? Are there things you see that make you decide that a student can make some minimum corrections, as opposed to someone who needs an overhaul? Do you tend to teach one over the other? I'm curious because the attendees reporting from Yoda's workshop seem quite enamored with hitting (and the unmistakeable sound of 3D Impact)

My twin Yoda teaches both Hitting and Swinging. And he can do both equally well. He says 'Swing if you want and here's how.' Or, 'Hit if you want and here's how.'

But he's a 'Wus.'

I like to Hit.

Who would win a "head to head" match between Yoda swinging and Holenone hitting?

 

[EdZ]

In the final analysis, it is the WEDGE that controls the clubface.

Set the wedge, keep the wedge, send the wedge downplane - no manipulation needed. 10-2-D will show you this.

I would agree with Steve - the hands are CLAMPS and do not do anything independent of the rest of the machine

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

Wooooo... great post. Thanks for the insight.

 

[dene]

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.
[/quote]

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

[/quote]
Wooooo... great post. Thanks for the insight.
[/quote]

David Alford....this is how to debate! Thoroughly enjoyed the exchange fellas. Understood about 10% of it but that's my problem. ;>

Looking forward to the next topic too!

-Greg

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by dclaryjr

How do you approach working with someone for the first time in regards to swinging/hitting? Are there things you see that make you decide that a student can make some minimum corrections, as opposed to someone who needs an overhaul? Do you tend to teach one over the other? I'm curious because the attendees reporting from Yoda's workshop seem quite enamored with hitting (and the unmistakeable sound of 3D Impact)

My twin Yoda teaches both Hitting and Swinging. And he can do both equally well. He says 'Swing if you want and here's how.' Or, 'Hit if you want and here's how.'

But he's a 'Wus.'

I like to Hit.

Who would win a "head to head" match between Yoda swinging and Holenone hitting?

Me.

But not because I'm a better Ball Striker. We're both about the same. Although, now that I think about it, more times than not, I do seem to stick it inside him with irons.

The big difference is Putting. Yoda's got the yips and won't go to the Long Putter. I did -- years ago -- and now my putts run into the hole like scared mice.

The other day, for example, I'm out in 32 and in in 33 for a nice little 65 with only 25 putts. Yoda finished...well, let's just say, a distant second!

All he could mumble as we walked off the 18th was:

"I don't believe it!"

And then I laid one of his old lines on him:

"And that, dear brother, is why you fail."

[8D]

 

[6bee1dee]

Yoda, got to love 2-M-3, second paragraph- first sentence. Like Arnie, like Moe.

 

[efnef]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by dclaryjr

How do you approach working with someone for the first time in regards to swinging/hitting? Are there things you see that make you decide that a student can make some minimum corrections, as opposed to someone who needs an overhaul? Do you tend to teach one over the other? I'm curious because the attendees reporting from Yoda's workshop seem quite enamored with hitting (and the unmistakeable sound of 3D Impact)

My twin Yoda teaches both Hitting and Swinging. And he can do both equally well. He says 'Swing if you want and here's how.' Or, 'Hit if you want and here's how.'

But he's a 'Wus.'

I like to Hit.

Who would win a "head to head" match between Yoda swinging and Holenone hitting?

Me.

But not because I'm a better Ball Striker. We're both about the same. Although, now that I think about it, more times than not, I do seem to stick it inside him with irons.

The big difference is Putting. Yoda's got the yips and won't go to the Long Putter. I did -- years ago -- and now my putts run into the hole like scared mice.

The other day, for example, I'm out in 32 and in in 33 for a nice little 65 with only 25 putts. Yoda finished...well, let's just say, a distant second!

All he could mumble as we walked off the 18th was:

"I don't believe it!"

And then I laid one of his old lines on him:

"And that, dear brother, is why you fail."

[8D]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I'm schizophrenic,
And so am I.

 

[Triad]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

So, can we conclude that Gerry Hogans assertion that'foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment' is incorrect?

Clearly Hing action, controled by the left wrist, imparts clubhead closing, with or without forearm rotation. Even Horizontal Hinging is a 'full roll feel' not an actual roll of the hands/forearms.

Yes, for the Swinger, there is the swivel from release to impact, and from follow-through to Finish, but it does not substitute for proper hinge action.

As pointed out earlier: Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms."

But he also said " Some players even execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel (forearm rotation:my words) making clubhead alignment fleeting and eratic." I know! I have tried it!

Triad

 

[Matt Taylor]

This is getting kind of scary...

 

[Triad]

quote:Originally posted by Matt Taylor

This is getting kind of scary...

"Fear is not an Option"
-Jamie Lee Curtis, True Lies

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by Triad

quote:Originally posted by Matt Taylor

This is getting kind of scary...

"Fear is not an Option"
-Jamie Lee Curtis, True Lies

As Yoda taught me, never forget the arms. The arms move the club along its path. Its just that the hands control the clubHEAD (right hand) and clubFACE (left hand). God gave us a wonderful tool to fine tune a tool. I write with my hand not shoulder or arm. The finest artists paint the most expressive lines with the mind in their hands. Great golfers control the ball with the clubface that is controled with the hands.
But don't forget the arms, the forearms or the shoulders - power package - can't swing the club without the arms, just as you can't control the clubhead or face without the hands. Scary? Sure is when you are that good with a iron.


Yes, Gerry Hogan's assertion that foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment is incorrect. Why move so much forearm to move such a tiny little head or face when proper alignments, not positions of the hands do the job better? That Hogan was wrong. Arms important? Yes, tremendously - sole control? Nope.
Has the hijacking begun? ..

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by Triad

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

cdog.. your hands are attached to your forearms by the wrist. Since the hand cannot rotate independent of the arm, they must rotate because of the forearm's rotation.

Take notice.. wherever your forearm is in alignment to, the clubface is also. Try rotating your forearms.. and see what happens. But you can bend, or cock your hand and the clubface will still align with the forearm. All of this of course will be relative to the grip on the club... the same as it would be if the discussion was on the back of the left wrist.

Now.. I am not saying that the clubface does not align with the back of the left wrist... but what I am saying is that the rotation of the clubface cannot occur by the hands alone... in fact the hand cannot rotate the club at all (unless you twirl it in your fingers). The only appendage capable of independent rotation are the arms. The hand cannot rotate without the rotation of the forearm or upper arm. It's bio-mechanical. And since the only way to rotate the clubface is by rotating the hand, thusly it must be done by the arm.

All that being said.. the mind can be focused on the hands as accomplishing the task.. but it is inaccurate to say the hands do any of the actual work.

The LOFT on the club can be altered by the hands.. and the clubs position along the arc can be altered by the hands. It can even be thrown off the arc by the hands (cocking/uncocking)... but the leading edge of the blade is soley effected by the rotation of the forearms.

I think I've fairly well exhausted my point.

Ringer,

There is no argument here and hence no point for debate.

The Flat Left Wrist control of the Club has two distinct Actions. One is a Hinge Action (Clubface Control) and the other is a Swivel Action (Clubhead Control). Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club. For the text-challenged among us, he even drew a Swivel Joint in the Left Arm in the Golfer's Flail (Sketch 2-K #4 and #5).

No, Homer's position was not that the Hands originate the Motions of the Clubface (Hinge Action) and the Clubhead (Swivel Action), only that they control them. In fact, he said exactly that in 2-M-3:

"The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps attaching the Club to the Arms for control of the Clubface alignments."

"So, the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the Wrists is 'holding on.'

Next 'Anti-TGM' topic for debate, please.

So, can we conclude that Gerry Hogans assertion that'foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment' is incorrect?

Clearly Hing action, controled by the left wrist, imparts clubhead closing, with or without forearm rotation. Even Horizontal Hinging is a 'full roll feel' not an actual roll of the hands/forearms.

Yes, for the Swinger, there is the swivel from release to impact, and from follow-through to Finish, but it does not substitute for proper hinge action.

As pointed out earlier: Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms."

But he also said " Some players even execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel (forearm rotation:my words) making clubhead alignment fleeting and eratic." I know! I have tried it!

Triad

I'm not sure you read Holenone's post very thuroughly... or perhaps you have a different interpretation of it... but I quite clearly see a conclusion supporting my position.. as well as that of the hands. Mostly because the hands are being used as a reference point not as the active participants..

quote:
Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club.

That last bit needs particular attention. The entire arm and club rotates. That indicates not JUST the hand.. but the entire accumulator. One could easily reference any part of that accumulator including the forearm, wrist, or hand. Which truely makes it more a matter of preferance. But as I have said, the hand cannot rotate without the arm also rotating.. and vice versa. You cannot rotate the forearm without also rotating the hand. YOUR FOCUS is that of preference and HK prefered to reference the hand.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee
As Yoda taught me, never forget the arms. The arms move the club along its path. Its just that the hands control the clubHEAD (right hand) and clubFACE (left hand). God gave us a wonderful tool to fine tune a tool. I write with my hand not shoulder or arm. The finest artists paint the most expressive lines with the mind in their hands. Great golfers control the ball with the clubface that is controled with the hands.
But don't forget the arms, the forearms or the shoulders - power package - can't swing the club without the arms, just as you can't control the clubhead or face without the hands. Scary? Sure is when you are that good with a iron.


Yes, Gerry Hogan's assertion that foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment is incorrect. Why move so much forearm to move such a tiny little head or face when proper alignments, not positions of the hands do the job better? That Hogan was wrong. Arms important? Yes, tremendously - sole control? Nope.
Has the hijacking begun? ..

Is it the HAND or the WRIST ACTION which controls the clubhead? Do you write with your hand, or do you simply grip the pen with your hand and use the hinging movement of your wrist to make your hand go back and forth coupled with repositioning of the entire arm? In fact the second is more accurate, but not at all what the brain is focused on.

How false is Mr. Hogans assertion then? Since the hand cannot be rotated without the forearm rotating, how can his view not be allowed for?

 

[Triad]

[/quote]

So, can we conclude that Gerry Hogans assertion that'foream rotation is SOLELY responsible for clubface alignment' is incorrect?

Clearly Hing action, controled by the left wrist, imparts clubhead closing, with or without forearm rotation. Even Horizontal Hinging is a 'full roll feel' not an actual roll of the hands/forearms.

Yes, for the Swinger, there is the swivel from release to impact, and from follow-through to Finish, but it does not substitute for proper hinge action.

As pointed out earlier: Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms."

But he also said " Some players even execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel (forearm rotation:my words) making clubhead alignment fleeting and eratic." I know! I have tried it!

Triad
[/quote]
I'm not sure you read Holenone's post very thuroughly... or perhaps you have a different interpretation of it... but I quite clearly see a conclusion supporting my position.. as well as that of the hands. Mostly because the hands are being used as a reference point not as the active participants..

quote:
Regarding the Hinge Action, Homer Kelley states clearly in 2-G that "'Roll' is actually imparted by the turning torso and/or the orbiting arms." Regarding the Swivel Action, he states that it is a "true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3." Accumulator #3, of course, is the Left Arm and Club.

That last bit needs particular attention. The entire arm and club rotates. That indicates not JUST the hand.. but the entire accumulator. One could easily reference any part of that accumulator including the forearm, wrist, or hand. Which truely makes it more a matter of preferance. But as I have said, the hand cannot rotate without the arm also rotating.. and vice versa. You cannot rotate the forearm without also rotating the hand. YOUR FOCUS is that of preference and HK prefered to reference the hand.

[/quote]

Ringer,

I try to read the posts thoroughly, although I will be the first to admit that I don't always 'get' Holenones posts so the potential for misinterperetation is high, but not deliberate.

It is very possble his post supports your position. But I am not exactly sure what your position is. If it is that the rotating forearms are the primary means of clubface alignment then I will still disagree. If your position is that in some swings there is an element of forearm rotation, then I agree.

Triad

 

[Triad]

[/quote]
Is it the HAND or the WRIST ACTION which controls the clubhead? Do you write with your hand, or do you simply grip the pen with your hand and use the hinging movement of your wrist to make your hand go back and forth coupled with repositioning of the entire arm? In fact the second is more accurate, but not at all what the brain is focused on.

How false is Mr. Hogans assertion then? Since the hand cannot be rotated without the forearm rotating, how can his view not be allowed for?
[/quote]

In my understanding, it is the Hand that controls the clubhead. The Right Hand, as sensed through the #3PP.

It is the Hinge action of the left shoulder (controlled by the Flat Left Wrist) that controls the clubface

Question: Can the Hands rotate without the forearm Rotating? Yes and no. I think we need to clarify the difference between Rotation and Roll. Can the Hand Rotate without a Turn/Roll of the forearm? Most definately, yes.

Try this, Hold the club straight out in front of you at shoulder height. Arms fully extended and tense. The toe of the club points straight up in the air. Now, Rotate your shoulders, arms and club (on the same Horizontal plane) as one unit, 90 degrees to the right. If you did it right, the toe of the club is still pointing straight up in the air.

Your hands (and arms) have Rotated in space, but there was no roll of the forearms. This is the action of the Pivot. Also note how the clubface opened in relation to the target line. If you return the assembly back to your starting position you will see the clubface closing, and square-up to the target line with No Roll of the forearms. The same principle works on the Angled plane of the golf swing. Roll is not necessary to square the clubface unless the forearms were Turned in the backswing. Therefore, Rolling of the forearms is not mandatory for clubFACE control.

In my (humble)opinion, emphasizing the primacy of forearm Roll as a method to control and square the clubface is an oversimplifiction that fails to fully recognize the real underlying mechanics of the action and is a recipe for inconsistency.

I might expect that in an AJ Bonar tape. I wouldn't expect it from Gerry Hogan, so I must have misundertood the gist of your argument.

Best,
Triad

 

[David Alford]

The obvious has been overlooked: grip, stance, arm orientation, wrist orientation, shoulder orientation, swing planes and club parameters such as grip size and shaft flex all exert an influence on clubhead control esp. in a pure swing model, but in other models to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[David Alford]

I'm sorry, I left out grip and arm tension.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Very good points David.

 

[Triad]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

The obvious has been overlooked: grip, stance, arm orientation, wrist orientation, shoulder orientation, swing planes and club parameters such as grip size and shaft flex all exert an influence on clubhead control esp. in a pure swing model, but in other models to a greater or lesser degree.

David,

Please explain/elaborate on how your above mentioned overlooked factors, grip, stance etc..are pertinent to the discussion. Also, please explain how all these factors influence clubface control.

As the thread title asks...David, In your opinion, what controls the clubface?

Triad