Brian Manzella
Administrator
Thanks for the posts Virt. Good job!
ALL OF THIS IS A FRAME OF REFERENCE PROBLEM—the main problem with 2D video.
ALL OF THIS IS A FRAME OF REFERENCE PROBLEM—the main problem with 2D video.
What Kind of Release is this? & Can an effective swing include no deceleration?
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
A lot depends on why the club face is more open late in the swing imo
People talk about rate of closure but don't really elaborate on it.From what point to what point is ROC more important-during the impact interval or from last parallel to impact?Are they mutually exclusive?Would a high ROC from last parallel to impact result in a higher or lower ROC during the impact interval?
Players like Hogan and Sergio would "appear" on video to have a high ROC from last parallel to impact as they have a very laid off shaft deep into their downswing and then tumble like crazy to square it up at impact.No way Jose I can do that and probably most players.
Players like Hogan and Sergio would "appear" on video to have a high ROC from last parallel to impact as they have a very laid off shaft deep into their downswing and then tumble like crazy to square it up at impact.No way Jose I can do that and probably most players.
lia41985
New member
Can you guys just take a look at the book I linked to? As Brian said, this is a "frame of reference" issue. This all involves complicated mathematics. Observations of video won't really cut it if we really want to move this discussion further. Everyone is talking their proverbial book but there's at least one book that will actually help our collective understanding.
grahler
New
With all the roc talk and precision measurement involved on this topic of release a question comes to mind.
Given that there's so many variables involved ie gripping the club setting the feet aoa roc etc how accurate can a player expect to be? It seems like science is getting closer to more accurate data all the time... When will the accuracy of the data surpass what is possible for the player to accomplish or has it aalready?
I mean how accurate can a pro be when all the variables are factored in on full shots?
Given that there's so many variables involved ie gripping the club setting the feet aoa roc etc how accurate can a player expect to be? It seems like science is getting closer to more accurate data all the time... When will the accuracy of the data surpass what is possible for the player to accomplish or has it aalready?
I mean how accurate can a pro be when all the variables are factored in on full shots?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I am telling you folks, REAL MEASURED Rate of Closure on the "about the shaft" axis, is dependent on lots of things that hardly anyone is even considering.
One of them is the grip.
Another is the "#3" angle of the left arm and club.
One is clubhead speed.
Another is angle of attack.
etc.
One of them is the grip.
Another is the "#3" angle of the left arm and club.
One is clubhead speed.
Another is angle of attack.
etc.
tongzilla
New
Maybe rate of left/right wrist closure is what some people would like to measure instead?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Lead arm and trail arm rotation is measured in all the good 3D systems.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Basically, the hips reach max speed in most every good player, when the hips return to square.
lia41985
New member
Dariusz,
What I think you fail to see is how the "weakness" of the grips employed by Donald and Hogan effectuate the same seen movement ("the flip") in both swings. Forget about "crossover" or whatever. Let's try and be more precise. I'm just as guilty of being vague.
So here goes. At address, both players have their left arm "preset" in a very supinated position. The left palm is facing more skyward, towards the face than with most players. The grip runs in the base of the left hand. The right hand almost seems to fall into the left as in a clap. The feeling is that the right hand is right on top of that darn shaft. Once the grip is in this position, wrist action is "preset" to occur mostly in what could be called the ulnar deviation plane/vertical cocking plane.
But it's not. And that's the secret to their grips.
Forget what anatomical plane you think the swings are on. Let's call it a vertical cocking plane. Not the ulnar deviation/cross-over plane or the flexion/extension/slow & stable RoC plane.
In what plane is the motion occurring?
Why is it a heresy to think that players who you don't deify may have used similar biomechanics to the Great Ben Hogan? Maybe that's what you need to learn if you're going to really be a Hogan fan. It wasn't the biomechanics that separated him from his peers. It was the sheer tenacity. If you love him as much as you do you really should get to know him.
What I think you fail to see is how the "weakness" of the grips employed by Donald and Hogan effectuate the same seen movement ("the flip") in both swings. Forget about "crossover" or whatever. Let's try and be more precise. I'm just as guilty of being vague.
So here goes. At address, both players have their left arm "preset" in a very supinated position. The left palm is facing more skyward, towards the face than with most players. The grip runs in the base of the left hand. The right hand almost seems to fall into the left as in a clap. The feeling is that the right hand is right on top of that darn shaft. Once the grip is in this position, wrist action is "preset" to occur mostly in what could be called the ulnar deviation plane/vertical cocking plane.
But it's not. And that's the secret to their grips.
Forget what anatomical plane you think the swings are on. Let's call it a vertical cocking plane. Not the ulnar deviation/cross-over plane or the flexion/extension/slow & stable RoC plane.
In what plane is the motion occurring?
Why is it a heresy to think that players who you don't deify may have used similar biomechanics to the Great Ben Hogan? Maybe that's what you need to learn if you're going to really be a Hogan fan. It wasn't the biomechanics that separated him from his peers. It was the sheer tenacity. If you love him as much as you do you really should get to know him.
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"Deify." I like that word.
You still looking for "side bend" in those pics, Lifter? Check the line that goes through the torso...
mgranato
New
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lia41985
New member
A case study in frame of reference, parallax, and other distortions:
Over-rotation of the left arm flying wedge leading to laid off? Nah. Natalie looks as "across" as any pro. But why? Thoracic spine range of motion. Somebody should go back and check all those "fixes" Butch's students like Greg Norman and Young Tiger needed for being in that position.
What's your frame of reference? The left arm? The thoracic spine? The way the club is situated to what you think is the golfer's target when the club is at the top of his swing in a frame from a so-called "down-the-line view" video?
Assumptions, assumptions.
Over-rotation of the left arm flying wedge leading to laid off? Nah. Natalie looks as "across" as any pro. But why? Thoracic spine range of motion. Somebody should go back and check all those "fixes" Butch's students like Greg Norman and Young Tiger needed for being in that position.
What's your frame of reference? The left arm? The thoracic spine? The way the club is situated to what you think is the golfer's target when the club is at the top of his swing in a frame from a so-called "down-the-line view" video?
Assumptions, assumptions.
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Michael Finney
New
If there was anyone on this planet with the physical makeup to actually "superposition", it would Dustin Johnson. Alas, he succumbs to the vagaries of being human and swinging a stick.
Like Natep said, stop this fight, it's a technical knock out....
Like Natep said, stop this fight, it's a technical knock out....
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