What Mass is involved in the strike?

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leon

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Wow, I go away for a few months and this forum goes seriously downhill. What happened? Lia used to post some good stuff but, well, not now I guess. Shame.

Well anyhoo, I might be qualified to take a stab at your clamped grip question. So basically, as everyone has said, it makes no difference to impact at all. Let me explain why. And apologies if I'm dumbing this down too much, but I want it to make sense to people who don't have any engineering qualifications.

Basically, when you're talking about impact, forces applied in one place don't instantaneously appear somewhere else, they move around in waves (stress waves really). And the speed they move at depends on the material that they are in (and depending in how the load was applied, e.g. compressive/tensile waves move faster than shear waves).

For sake of argument, lets consider a steel shafted 5 iron, which is around 37 inches long, or 940mm for my European friends. Now shear waves in steel move at just over 3000m/s (around 7000mph!), so it would take just under 0.6 milliseconds for the wave to travel up the shaft, be reacted by the clamp and then back down to the clubhead, where it could have some effect on the ball. Problem is, an impact is only 0.4ms, so the ball is long gone by then. Plus, once its reached full compression, its got most of its energy from the clubhead, so you've really only got around 0.2 milliseconds to play with.

So as Mandarin showed previously, for the impact duration you can just consider the problem using conservation of momentum (including COR as its not an elastic collision).

Oh, and to answer your inertia question, clamping does nothing to the clubhead's inertia during impact. It does of course affect the club overall, but there is no effect on the ball. It just stops the club flying across your yard/laboratory.
 
Where I was leading with questioning Lia may be obvious, but it takes precise measuring for the data collection. Then there is the data processing with a large enough sample size or number of trials with statistical data analysis to determine if there was a significant difference between the two groups. There were also a few more variables that would need to be controlled that were not mentioned, But it's actually a pretty interesting little experiment that I may try for fun.
 
lia is busy experimenting and has likely no time to report back. I am not quite sure is it physics or metaphysics we are dealing with. :p

In the mean time a bit of information on the behavior of a club when clamped to a solid object or when used in the hands of a golfer swinging a club.

Just a simple experiment will do. Clamp a club on any flat surface and deflect the head a bit. Notice how it vibrates for quite some time.

Next grip it very firmly with your hands and ask someone to deflect the clubhead. No way you can have it oscillate.

The club by itself is indeed a mass spring oscillatory system with very little damping However with the hands on the grip a substantial amount of damping is introduced by the soft tissues of the hands.

When the club is swung it behaves as an over-damped system and it can't kick forward as some believe. This particular forward motion is due to an inertial torque acting on the head offset mass.

Now what happens if one manages to direct a golf ball with high speed onto the sweet spot of a club clamped at the handle.

The short duration impact willl be regarded by a scientist typically as an impulsive loading of an oscillatory system.

It constitutes a broadband excitation and the various oscillation modes are most likely excited, a very complicated mix of axial, torsional and lateral vibrations.

The high frequency modes die out very quickly, experiencing much more damping, and dominantly will remain the most basic lateral mode.

In the short 0.0004 sec of impact the clubhead will travel a very short distance but acquires a large speed. The clamped club will be oscillating laterally rather violently for some time.

For those who like to fiddle around. Clamp a driver parallel and close to the ground and let a ball drop on the sweet spot. Not very high speed impact but it gives an idea. :eek:
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
"God, I admire you" - Irwin M. Fletcher

It's an automatic hall of fame post if you can get me to understand something like that.
 

lia41985

New member
How in the heck does that explain what the ball does in the clamped versus non-clamped (i.e. "dangling") scenarios? Talking about the club's oscillation when the question involves the ball's behavior seems to be a distraction. Maybe that's just me.

"God, I admire you" - Irwin M. Fletcher

It's an automatic hall of fame post if you can get me to understand something like that.
Kevin,
I would appreciate but in no way expect that you could explain it since you seem to understand it. Obviously you think I'm entitled to the extreme but then again I've had great discussions with you regarding tumble, the tug, etc. It'd be a shame to think that communication between one another could only occur along the most parochial of lines. Anyways, do you think mandrin's explanation explain's the ball's behavior? It seemed to me he was only talking about the club.
 
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If you wouldn't mind, please, try in some way to run the experiment and tell me what you observe. I'd rather have your reflections on that than your preconceived notion or theoretical regurgitation.
Lia - cut the crap. why would Kevin or anyone take the time to explain anything more to you, if your response is going to be ' you haven' t done the experiment' or "theoretical regurgitation" or "appeal to authority" etc, etc
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Lia, good luck with your search. Not that you would care, but I'm totally done with you. You've gone out of your way to try to ruin this forum. I'm sure there are a lot of people waaaaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than me you can get info from.
 
Lia - It seems to me that Mandrin is saying that the ball and clubhead have already separated by the time that clamping could react to the shock of impact and make a difference to the ball's flight.

Old Tom
 
I'm wondering why clamped vs. unclamped even matters? Let's say, for example, it does make a difference. How many golf swings are made unclamped? How many golf swings are made where the clamp is a clamp and not human hands?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Paul Wood today—in person—told me that Mandrin's explanation of the waves not having enough time to travel is correct.

Next subject.
 
I'm wondering why clamped vs. unclamped even matters? Let's say, for example, it does make a difference. How many golf swings are made unclamped? How many golf swings are made where the clamp is a clamp and not human hands?

faux_maestro,

I feel that you are touching upon another subject. More like does it make a difference if one swings a club with either little or substantial grip pressure. Both ways have been taught over time. But it is amusing to point out a possible paradox.

One could imagine a golfer with a very firm grip to be very much concerned controlling his swing and trying to swing like a machine, very deliberate and controlled. On the other hand swinging freely, with very little grip pressure appears like abandon, less control. Yet is this quite true ? If you truly have minimum grip pressure one can argue that you swing like a machine as you let the inertial forces dictate the swing.

However if you refer to the idea that grip pressure can possibly do anything about what happens during impact than the answer is no. Grip pressure definitely is an important aspect of swinging a club but is of no consequence re. to the behavior of both ball and clubhead during the 0.0004 sec of impact.

Let's just assume that the whole swing takes about 1 sec than the golfer has reasonable control for 0.9996 sec, but none whatsoever for 0.0004 sec. Not bad, nothing to complain about. :cool:
 

lia41985

New member
Waves?!

What happens to the ball?

"Golf is what the ball does." -John Jacobs

Lia - It seems to me that Mandrin is saying that the ball and clubhead have already separated by the time that clamping could react to the shock of impact and make a difference to the ball's flight.

Old Tom
Yes but is that what actually happens or...???
 
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Lia -

Golf is what happens to the ball AT IMPACT THROUGH THE PROGRAMMING OF THE CLUBHEAD BY ONES SWING.

cwdlaw223 - 2013

My revision to Jacobs' quote is more precise. Brian's signature line is still the best.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Plus the "center of mass" on the golf club at impact, is the center of mass of the the last 5to6 inches of shaft and the clubhead, and in the dangle test, it is the whole club.

Let me let all the guys who are trying to re-ivent the wheel of golf instruction with the idea that they are going to prove all the measurement devices and scientists wrong.

No.

You will lose.

We are going to lean the truth about describing the wheel that is there already, making all the scientists and measurement devices correct!


 

lia41985

New member
Who will lose what? Reinvent the wheel?

No. It's a matter of trying to learn and understand from that which may even confound us. So again, how does the ball react differently in the clamped versus unclamped example? Why are we talking about club face oscillation or the location of CoM of he club?

Everyone's afraid of what the implication is and so they'd rather not focus on the actual substance, it seems. Instead we can recite what the scientists say are the facts about corollary issues.

There's the notion that the club head (and last six inches of the shaft) "decouple" such that you're basically just throwing a point mass at a stationary ball (another idealized point mass). Noone thinks golf is more complicated than that?

Even mandrin's discussion of impact idealized impact collisions to exclude those that were oblique. Well, golf is mostly a game of oblique collisions so isn't that sort of modeling more a testament to the limits of the models and the true complexity of golf?
 

lia41985

New member
Lia -

Golf is what happens to the ball AT IMPACT THROUGH THE PROGRAMMING OF THE CLUBHEAD BY ONES SWING.

cwdlaw223 - 2013

My revision to Jacobs' quote is more precise. Brian's signature line is still the best.
You're right. You've taken the most celebrated golf instructor of the last 60 years and completely clarified the mystery behind his vague teachings. I'm pretty sure that Jacobs's quote, by implication, includes a club and impact. He didn't seem to ever advocate kicking or throwing your ball around the course ;)
 
Who will lose what? Reinvent the wheel?

No. It's a matter of trying to learn and understand from that which may even confound us. So again, how does the ball react differently in the clamped versus unclamped example? Why are we talking about club face oscillation or the location of CoM of he club?

Everyone's afraid of what the implication is and so they'd rather not focus on the actual substance, it seems. Instead we can recite what the scientists say are the facts about corollary issues.

There's the notion that the club head (and last six inches of the shaft) "decouple" such that you're basically just throwing a point mass at a stationary ball (another idealized point mass). Noone thinks golf is more complicated than that?

Even mandrin's discussion of impact idealized impact collisions to exclude those that were oblique. Well, golf is mostly a game of oblique collisions so isn't that sort of modeling more a testament to the limits of the models and the true complexity of golf?

So, again, why does this matter?
 
You must have stopped reading/thinking after you read what you bolded. :)

No

Are then arguing just for the sake of arguing?

You are "critically analyzing" Mandrin and somewhat dismissing his work for omitting oblique impacts in his analysis because golf is mostly a game of oblique impacts. Yet you are arguing that a ball will act differently if impacted by a club that is not attached to anything, but do not advocate letting go of the club before impact. What is the Latin term for this kind of logic fallacy?
 
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