Why Always Hogan?

[komanin]

I vote for Nicklaus swing analysys, i saw a 1 iron shot that landed within 6 feet. nuff said

 

[Dariusz J.]

This "Mr. Hogan" stuff is so silly. So many people act like they are going to get a badge of honor in some kind of butt kissing cult by calling him that. No one says Mr. Nicklaus or Mr. Woods. Why? because they don't have such an insanely haughty mystique around them. The guy hit golf balls, he didn't invent the wheel and cure cancer, and even if a guy did both of those two things he should be a lot less of a prick than Hogan. The reason that Hogan has such an ass kissing following around him is because of two things, he was one of the greatest ball strikers ever, and he was an asshole. Congrats on the ball striking Benjy, but your personality sucked.


I would recommend a lot of swing models to copy to the average golfer over Hogan's. It is very awkward for almost everybody to have a flat backswing where the hands don't get above shoulder height, and with a ton of lag. 99% of people would be better off trying to swing like Snead.

I think Jack Nicklaus' swing is pretty amazing. He hit the ball much farther than anyone with it. And it's not like the ball didn't go where he wanted to. I would take Jack's long game over Hogan's on a long course. Jack would bomb it by him by a mile and hit all the par 5's in two and have wedges into par 4's while Hogan would have wedges into the 5's and 6 irons into the 4's. On a short course I'd go with Hogan.

Along with Tiger 2000, Vijay and Els have swings that are tough to beat.

Did you know the man personally ? You've heard or read that he was rough to people and you have drawn conclusions that he was an asshole ? Think a bit first before you write something like that.

Oh, BTW, I've heard that Hogan's #6 iron shot was usually closer to the hole than Nicklaus' wedge...LOL. Same quality of an argument. Besides, it was Nicklaus who not only could stand hours watching Hogan strike balls on the range, but he officialy admitted who was the best ballstriker.

Cheers

 

[David Alford]

<The game defeated him like it does most men.>

And who did Ali lose to in his last match? Forgot the name, anyway
it's irrelevant. He lost to Father Time. Ditto for Hogan. And a lot of
other Greats. Everyone reading this post and everyone not reading it
will pay their respects to FT, sooner or later...

 

[David Alford]

<I mean, nobody, for whatever reason, has been able to duplicate it.>

I've been able to so at a pretty close frame by frame level and submitted my video some time ago. My opinion is, there is nothing weird about Hogan's swing. And I'd also argue it is not "too flat". To the contrary, the swing plane is optimal.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm glad to spark a good debate. I'm also glad no one attacked me If I were around back then, I would've been one of the ones watching Hogan all the time. Someone said it's silly to compare Woods to Hogan. Why? Today's pros have every bit of reverence for him and there is an equal aura. I find it hard to believe that Hogan could hit every shot Tiger can. And there is no doubt that Tiger could hit every single shot (and more) that Hogan could. When Tiger gets away from that knucklehead down in Dallas,I believe his swing is every bit the equal of Ben's.

 

[thefuture37]

Well...if the criterium is that the mechanically best swing is this one that produces the best results (length, consistency, reaching intended goals, etc.) - it was Mr.Hogan's late swing - noone ever had or has now better swing in this regard.
You can always assume that someone else's swing is mechanically better if the criteria you take are different though.

Cheers

Cheers

I don't get it...You say that the best swing is the one that produces the best results...but then you say that Tiger should never be mentioned with Snead and Hogan? He may not have the best swing ever, but he has better results than Snead and Hogan in majors, and is on pace to break their records for total wins(yes even snead's). So if the point of the swing is to "reach intended goals", as you claim, then why such disdain for Woods? When he retires, he will likely hold every significant record in golf(probably not Nelson's 11 straight though). Who cares what it looks like or how he did it when his results will be better than anyone else's ever? If you are going to refer to Hogan as "Mr. Hogan", at least have a little respect for the man who will be remembered as the best and most successful golfer of all time.

 

[self-mastery]

I'm glad to spark a good debate. I'm also glad no one attacked me If I were around back then, I would've been one of the ones watching Hogan all the time. Someone said it's silly to compare Woods to Hogan. Why? Today's pros have every bit of reverence for him and there is an equal aura. I find it hard to believe that Hogan could hit every shot Tiger can. And there is no doubt that Tiger could hit every single shot (and more) that Hogan could. When Tiger gets away from that knucklehead down in Dallas,I believe his swing is every bit the equal of Ben's.

I agree for the most part...

I bet Tiger has a few more shots around the green, don't forget how well he putts, and his godly recovery game, which Hogan didn't need for obvious reasons.

Great first post, Mr. Future37

 

[birdie_man]

I find it hard to believe that Hogan could hit every shot Tiger can. And there is no doubt that Tiger could hit every single shot (and more) that Hogan could. When Tiger gets away from that knucklehead down in Dallas,I believe his swing is every bit the equal of Ben's.

You must be talking about hitting shots that require power. And that's true. (not that Hogan dinked it though)

Brian brought up the same thing a while back. (he wrote a power-heavy, multi-step "test" for golfing ability that he thought Tiger had the best shot at passing)

What about consistency though?

Sure Hogan could have never put it past Tiger.....but as of yet, Tiger doesn't have Hogan's control either.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Did you know the man personally ? You've heard or read that he was rough to people and you have drawn conclusions that he was an asshole ? Think a bit first before you write something like that.

Oh, BTW, I've heard that Hogan's #6 iron shot was usually closer to the hole than Nicklaus' wedge...LOL. Same quality of an argument. Besides, it was Nicklaus who not only could stand hours watching Hogan strike balls on the range, but he officialy admitted who was the best ballstriker.

Cheers

Oh, I have to know him personally but you refer to him (and no other player) as "Mr." because?....you've met him in person? Haha.

There have been many accounts of Hogan's assholish behavior, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to piece that together. And it is that kind of behavior that has people acting like hilariously submissive kool aid drinkers like yourself. Who watched who on the driving range doesn't mean a damn thing compared to what happens in a golf tournament. You are way too much into hype and things you have "heard." Have you seen any of these guys even hit balls in person, I doubt it. Have you ever shot under par in a pro golf tournament? I also doubt it. But you think you really have a grip on things, you call the guy with the worst record in the discussion Mr. but not the other guys. Hilarious. Hogan was one of the greatest ballstrikers of all time. And so were some other guys.

 

[Billy_the_worm]

"Who watched who on the driving range doesn't mean a damn thing compared to what happens in a golf tournament. "

Lol, and so prooving the point immeasurbly. Hogan was the best tournament player of his generation, possibly ever.Or but how about 5 US Opens, or just let his record speak for itself? His tournament win ratio is the highest in golf history btw, inc 5 wins from only 6 tournaments the year after he was recovering from the accident and playing in a lot of pain. Those 5 included 3 majors (think about that for a second). I doubt you wanna hear more so I won't bother. As for his personality, well watching his father blow his head off aged 9 might have had something to do with it, or having to go to work to be the family breadwinner aged 12 might as well, but I could be wrong.

"could it annoy him after he died and how would you know unless you talk to the dead."

Apparently he made a derogatory comment aimed at Hogan in the funeral car, it still hurt, the fact hat Hogan was regarded as the better player.


211pro- I practice because I enjoy it. A lot, as it happens.

There is always those who dismiss Hogan online, in forums, but they always know little of his record, or about his book, his swing, or the man himself. The criticisms are usually based on ignorance.

AS for Hogan's 'assholish' behaviour, I have read every book on the man and haven't read anything that remotely resembles assholish, maybe I have missed some books?

 

[golfbulldog]

Why not? Woods is the best putter, approach specialist, and short game player to ever play the game. Seve Seve... being cute doesn't make you the greatest of all time.

Don't go dissing Seve!!

Seve had something that Tiger has yet to demonstrate - real charisma - the sort they you dare to show in public, the sort that inspires your teammate (even when you are paired with David Gilford)...

I do not think that in an argument of short game skills one can really seperate the talent of Tiger V's Seve.... but in charisma....Siempre Severiano!

Now back to the Hogan v's Sam v's whoever.... what people are really comparing is the characteristics of their own personality... if you admire and value hard-work ethic, over-coming handicap etc..you vote hogan.... if you admire the relaxed faux-bumpkin routine that Snead did (by all accounts he was alot sharper than the image he allowed to be portrayed) ...you vote Sam....

Who you vote for says more about the personality that you have / or aspire to be rather than the mechanics or merits of their respective swings....

Is it any wonder that on any golf forum discussing technique ( mainly read by guys who are searching for secrets of techinque) that Hogan is the number one hero.... he searched, he found, he overcame.... he accomplished.

 

[sweetser]

There have been many accounts of Hogan's assholish behavior, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to piece that together. And it is that kind of behavior that has people acting like hilariously submissive kool aid drinkers like yourself.

Personally I think it's a nice gesture but other than yourself and your over the top campaign to stamp it out, who gives a crap if anyone calls him Mr. Hogan?

 

[Dariusz J.]

OK, will try to explain what I meant without any mental shortcuts.

Hogan, opposite to other golf big names, has two different swings. Others change(d) this and that in their swings but those are not drastic changes. Even Brian made two separate analyses of Hogan's pre- and post-accident swing. I've never said that Hogan has the best swing - I've said that late Hogan had the best swing.
Now, when talking about criteria (different for different people, as we can see in threads like this one):

1. appearances in majors (or tournaments in general) - late Hogan (in the 50's) settled the bar unreachable for anybody else as regards % of efficiency of his starts, especially taking into account that he was reported to have problems with putting in his late days; besides, he was over 40 ys old, that proves that his swing did not depend on a young body ability; statistics don't lie:

The Masters: T4, 1, T7, 1, 2, 2, T8, CUT, T14, T30
U.S. Open: 1, 1, 3, 1, T6, 2, T2, DNP, T10, T8
The Open Championship: DNP,DNP, DNP, 1, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP
PGA Championship: DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP

only one missed cut ! 6 wins, 4 times runner-up, 17 times in first 10 for 20 appearances ! 3 majors won in the same year ! Enough said.

2. a swing that produces best results

i.e. mechanically best one, letting the golfer reach intended goals and most consistent. How can be other one if only Hogan is known as a man who shoot 100% GIR and 100% FIR during tournaments; he is reported to hit multiple shots with consistent laser precision both on the course as well as to shag-caddies on the range. I wish to stress, that we are talking about full swing, not recovery shots, chips or putts or final results of the tournaments. We are talking about the best golf swing.
If there is a thread about recovery shots - I'll be the first who posts that Woods' recovery shots are the best in the history; if there is a thread about short game - I'll be the first who posts that Woods, Ballesteros, Nicklaus, etc. are the all-time leaders; if there is a thread about putting - I'll be the first to say that again Woods, Nicklaus, Locke, etc. are leaders.
But how can I put Woods next to Hogan or Snead when we estimate efficiency or mechanics of full swings ?...unless he is so often in the trees or another shit in order to show to the world how magnificent his recovery shots are...and that's why trees are his intended goal...LOL.

Last but not least, all what I wrote is a derivative of my beliefs only. I never witnessed anybody live, I base my thoughts on that I could read or hear on golf fora in the net...and I have my own eyes also and can subjectively estimate swing mechanics watching golf videos of various pros. I am trying to be logical, and if my logic fails - it's not the first, not the last time.

Cheers

 

[self-mastery]

MEH

Most wins = Sam Snead

I don't care anything about percentage/ start. The result of Hogan's hard work left him with fewer wins than Sammy.

I do not understand the Hogan worship, it doesn't make sense. Act as the King and people will treat you as such... Wiggle your big toe and gain 30 extra yards. THE SECRET!!!

 

[thefuture37]

OK, will try to explain what I meant without any mental shortcuts.

only one missed cut ! 6 wins, 4 times runner-up, 17 times in first 10 for 20 appearances ! 3 majors won in the same year ! Enough said.

Cheers

That ten year span has nothing on Tiger's 97-07 in which he won 13 majors with one missed cut and 4 runner ups. 3 majors won in the same year too! 4 majors held at the same time! Even if you take out all his PGA victories during that time and all but one of his British Opens, as Hogan didnt play the pga and only one british open during that period, Tiger still has 7 Majors(compared to Hogan's 6) Don't forget that this is the BEGINNING of Tiger's career, while it took Hogan all his life to figure out what it took to get to the point that
you reference above.

 

[Billy_the_worm]

Snead has more wins because his career was longer, simple as that, apples and oranges, you are not comparing like for like. Hogan had a very short career due to the accident. Head to head Hogan had by far the better recored.

 

[self-mastery]

That ten year span has nothing on Tiger's 97-07 in which he won 13 majors with one missed cut and 4 runner ups. 3 majors won in the same year too! 4 majors held at the same time! Even if you take out all his PGA victories during that time and all but one of his British Opens, as Hogan didnt play the pga and only one british open during that period, Tiger still has 7 Majors(compared to Hogan's 6) Don't forget that this is the BEGINNING of Tiger's career, while it took Hogan all his life to figure out what it took to get to the point that
you reference above.

Exactly!!! It took Hogan 21 years to amass 64 wins, and Tiger 10 years to win 61 times with 13 majors.

Does Tiger become the better player after he wins 3 more times, or is it majors, percentage of wins?

Hogan hit it straight, but so does Morgan Pressel.

 

[self-mastery]

Snead has more wins because his career was longer, simple as that, apples and oranges, you are not comparing like for like. Hogan had a very short career due to the accident. Head to head Hogan had by far the better recored.

You fail to meet the guidelines that Brian established on the first page, NO WHAT IFS! What if Hogan would have lasted longer... Who knows, Who cares. His record is what it is, and we can only debate on what he did.

Check the stats a little closer.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Snead has more wins because his career was longer, simple as that, apples and oranges, you are not comparing like for like. Hogan had a very short career due to the accident. Head to head Hogan had by far the better recored.

Snead beat Hogan head-to-head many times. Snead was actually quite miffed that he never got the credit he felt he deserved for beating Hogan straight up most of the time.

 

[Billy_the_worm]

What, the stats of 'what if' he had not had a car accident? Its a pointless arguement, Snead had a full career, Hogan did not, due to a serious car accident. Hogan had 64 wins in 21 years, Snead 84 in 29, practically the same.

But I really couldn't care less really, Snead didn't win one US Open against Hogan, yet Hogan won four. That says it all. I suggest you check the stats a little closer

Whatever the debate about stats between the two, those 4 US Opens stand alone as testamount to a superior golfer. Snead got 'miffed' because he could not beat Hogan when it mattered, on US Open courses.