Why Always Hogan?

[eric54]

Golf isnt about having the nicest swing. Its about getting the ball in the hole in less shots than your competitors and thats where Tiger is supreme. IMO you can only compare one person to him and that is Jack not Hogan.

 

[Billy_the_worm]

The debate seems to be about Snead followers believing that 20 extra tournament wins, when Hogan wasn't playing, are worth more than 4 US Opens, when they played against each other. I simply do not need to argue that point at all.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Golf isnt about having the nicest swing. Its about getting the ball in the hole in less shots than your competitors and thats where Tiger is supreme.

Yes, indeed. But here, in this thread, we discuss why Hogan is the most mentioned name on each golf forum and not what golf is about. Almost everyone would like to have Hogan's swing, much less golfers would like to have swings of Nicklaus or Woods. Much less than in case of Snead's swing too.

Cheers

 

[tank]

Yes, indeed. But here, in this thread, we discuss why Hogan is the most mentioned name on each golf forum and not what golf is about. Almost everyone would like to have Hogan's swing, much less golfers would like to have swings of Nicklaus or Woods. Much less than in case of Snead's swing too.

Cheers

I can't imagine that to be true, or where you would even get the information to make such a claim.

 

[Dariusz J.]

OK, Tank, find me a serious golf froum on which they discuss Nicklaus' or Woods' swing more than Hogan's. If you fail to find it then you understand what I am talking about

Cheers

 

[Billy_the_worm]

Its a simple thread question, why is Hogan always discussed in forums. Its been answered a few times, its because he conquered swing mechanics like no one else before or after him. Snead, Nicklaus, Tiger, their records are irrelevant in that respect. They won because they have other qualities, swing mechanics was/is/were owned by Hogan.

 

[tank]

OK, Tank, find me a serious golf froum on which they discuss Nicklaus' or Woods' swing more than Hogan's. If you fail to find it then you understand what I am talking about

Cheers

I gues we are not talking about the same thing.

never mind

 

[self-mastery]

I would rather be Jack Nicklaus than any other golfer. Jack could putt lights out, he made the game easy for himself, he won more majors than anyone, and has the second best win rate of all time.

I would rather talk about Jack all day than Hogan. Ballstriking = power + accuracy. Hogan couldn't hit lights out like Jack, he couldn't putt like Jack, he didn't win 18 majors like Jack.

Hogan is discussed be because he was a good ballstriker, his back story is very compelling, he came back from a tragic accident, kicked some fanny, and won a few majors. He was standoffish and didn't reveal too much about his technique because he EARNED it in the dirt, and believed that others should as well. So you all are left to guess what he did, to figure out the SECRET...

 

[komanin]

I would rather be Jack Nicklaus than any other golfer. Jack could putt lights out, he made the game easy for himself, he won more majors than anyone, and has the second best win rate of all time.

I would rather talk about Jack all day than Hogan. Ballstriking = power + accuracy. Hogan couldn't hit lights out like Jack, he couldn't putt like Jack, he didn't win 18 majors like Jack.

Hogan is discussed be because he was a good ballstriker, his back story is very compelling, he came back from a tragic accident, kicked some fanny, and won a few majors. He was standoffish and didn't reveal too much about his technique because he earned it in the dirt, and believed that others should as well. So you all are left to guess what he did, to figure out the SECRET...

amen! Jack did also reveal to us how he did it, at least i belive.he said "swing the clubhead" i find in my game when i do just that i have a lot less to worry about in my swing.

 

[Kevin Shields]

You must be talking about hitting shots that require power. And that's true. (not that Hogan dinked it though)

Brian brought up the same thing a while back. (he wrote a power-heavy, multi-step "test" for golfing ability that he thought Tiger had the best shot at passing)

What about consistency though?

Sure Hogan could have never put it past Tiger.....but as of yet, Tiger doesn't have Hogan's control either.

Not really, birdie. All types of shots. Tiger can bring it in from any angle imaginable. When he's on, he's every bit as consistent.

I'm not sure, so no one freak out. But I don't recall Hogan winning majors by as large a margin as Tiger does. And Tiger has far superior fields in which to do it against.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Interstesting that Faldo's swing has not come up. The thread did go a little stray. it really wasn't meant to discuss career records, just pure swing mechanics. I personally think Faldo of 1996 had the best swing ever.

 

[birdie_man]

Not really, birdie. All types of shots. Tiger can bring it in from any angle imaginable. When he's on, he's every bit as consistent.

I'm not sure, so no one freak out. But I don't recall Hogan winning majors by as large a margin as Tiger does. And Tiger has far superior fields in which to do it against.

Tiger is a very good shotmaker but I can't see how Hogan or a number of other guys couldn't do the same.

With consistency......I think you got it when you said "when he's on." (and even then I'm not sure)

As for margins....I read that Nicklaus was a pretty conservative player even when he had the lead. I think Hogan was prolly the same way. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lastly.....Tiger is one of the best ever and maybe soon to be called the best ever......

....but I am also waiting for people to NOT fold under pressure down the stretch in majors. (69-70-68...........Sunday: 79.................uh oh.............)

 

[self-mastery]

If it were people folding under pressure against Hogan you all would exalt him. Tiger is a better shotmaker than Hogan. He's golfs highlight reel man. He single handedly made golf cool. Has anyone else ever dominated like him? Annika? Ochoa will have her day!

When he's on? Get real guys... Tiger is always on. His lowest ranking since grabbing the #1 spot 9 years ago was at #2 for a brief time. The so-called Tiger slumps is media garbage. I and every other golfer in the world would like to have a Tiger slump.

I am Tiger Woods.

He's so good that I hate him Similar to looking at Rachel Smith.

 

[birdie_man]

As for this debate in general.....

Look at the Results Timeline on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hogan#CITEREFBarkow1989

9 major wins (64 wins total)........lots of NTs.........and lots of DNPs- a year of which due to the accident....+ the health effects of the accident itself.

(which limited his schedule and almost took his ability to walk)

And that page just shows his majors. I mean..........I don't think it takes much to figure all this out and realize how good this guy got to be.

And I understand that results count and that theory is just theory etc.........but I don't think it's fair to skip straight to the bottom line (wins total) because in the end there are other things that (ALSO) matter. And I think we all know they matter.

Again- end of story? Hell no.

Theory? Lots of it.

But it all plays into the big picture and to me you can't completely discount it. If people just want to look at "the bottom line" and call it right there they can go ahead. I think they're missing part of the story though.

I just think that if you take his record.........and then you add in Jack Nicklaus and all the other pros who saw him with their own eyes and glowingly attest to the (maybe unprecedented) level of skill he attained......and add in the accident......his winning percentages......etc. etc............and you've got something anyway. Best player ever? I dunno. To me I think it might be more up for debate than some think anyway.

If nothing else, to me Hogan may be the guy who reached the highest level of ballstriking skill (control over the ball with power) of any player ever. Some will dispute this and say people exaggerate etc. I dunno though- there just seems to be so much evidence that pretty strongly suggests he really was this good. And if he was...I think that means a lot.

For the record though I don't think I'd say Hogan is the best player ever........but I do think think you have to take a closer look at the whole story......and with that I think you can make some kind of a case.

I've written similar examples before but here we go again......

Hypothetical Situation:

I win 2 majors and 10 tournaments total on the PGA Tour every year for the next 7 years AND overtake Tiger in the #1 spot for my entire run, making Tiger cry in public. Players, including Eldrick, start watching me hit balls on the range because I hit it so much better than any of them. Nike dumps Tiger and offers me an unprecedented $$$10 ga-gillion (so big it needs bold letters and 3 $$$ symbols in front of it) endorsement deal. I refuse it because I like Adidas better. I start calling people "chumps" and no one calls me on it.

I retire after my 7th year.

...

14 majors (uh-oh that falls short of Jack)............70 wins (uh-oh Snead's got me)..........

No (i.e. zero) chance at "best player ever" title?

 

[birdie_man]

If it were people folding under pressure against Hogan you all would exalt him.

You prolly have a point. I'm sure some people would exalt.

But hey.....it happens......(and somewhere there are stats).......come Sunday, we've seen lots of guys completely fall back from the level they've been playing at. Tiger's gotta get some credit for this effect. But to me you can't say the "where the hell did everyone go" debate doesn't count.

And people say the field is stronger as a whole...........but I think this may lessen the amount of guys who can come down the stretch.

Say you take 100 tourneys with 100 different winners.......VS. 100 tourneys with 10 different winners.

What type of player is going to come down the stretch better?

Joe-Blow player 1 out of 100? Or Mr. Been There Done That 10 Times Over?

Does the Tour now have more players similar to the former group than they do of the latter group? I think maybe it does.

But then what's the deal with the other big-name multiple winners on tour? Who knows. I have no conspiracy theory as of yet.

Man my head hurts from all this analyzing.......time to wrap er up and go to bed.

Tiger is a better shotmaker than Hogan. He's golfs highlight reel man.

Hey he's hit some good ones that's for sure. I think he also gets himself into bush more then he'd like.

He single handedly made golf cool.

Tiger is a wiener.

When he's on? Get real guys... Tiger is always on.

We were talking ballstriking.

He's so good that I hate him

Wiener I say!!!

 

[David Alford]

Snead has more wins because his career was longer, simple as that, apples and oranges, you are not comparing like for like. Hogan had a very short career due to the accident. Head to head Hogan had by far the better recored.

And...if you watch them both in the one match mano-mano we can all watch (Shell Series) it's clear Hogan is Snead's master at that time. Hogan's ball control is at another level. He also gets in a dig at the post match wrap up where he says (to effect) Sammy would have scored better if he had hit it closer to the hole...LOL!

 

[David Alford]

I would rather be Jack Nicklaus than any other golfer. Jack could putt lights out, he made the game easy for himself, he won more majors than anyone, and has the second best win rate of all time.

I would rather talk about Jack all day than Hogan. Ballstriking = power + accuracy. Hogan couldn't hit lights out like Jack, he couldn't putt like Jack, he didn't win 18 majors like Jack.

Hogan's career was ending at the time Jack's was beginning. Yet, reportedly, Hogan sought out JN for a match when ever it was possible. As he did with any REALLY good golfer, such as with Trevino.

This anecdote, if true, tells me Hogan believed himself to be a better player. Why would you seek out someone if you thought you'd get your arse kicked?
Pretty confident for a guy at his age, wouldn't you agree?

Another story reinforces this. Hogan regretted he never had the opportunity to play Watson. I think the quote was "because he's the only one of the big five I didn't beat".

One last comment about comparing records, esp. international wins...keep in mind how much easier it is when you can fly your jet to the British Open or other world wide tournaments. Transportation is so much better. The $$$ is better. The ball and clubs are better. Everything is better. In Hogan's day, he had to take a boat to England, and never wanted do so a second time.

 

[JohnThomas1]

If it were people folding under pressure against Hogan you all would exalt him. Tiger is a better shotmaker than Hogan. He's golfs highlight reel man. He single handedly made golf cool. Has anyone else ever dominated like him? Annika? Ochoa will have her day!

When he's on? Get real guys... Tiger is always on. His lowest ranking since grabbing the #1 spot 9 years ago was at #2 for a brief time. The so-called Tiger slumps is media garbage. I and every other golfer in the world would like to have a Tiger slump.

I am Tiger Woods.

He's so good that I hate him Similar to looking at Rachel Smith.

Tiger's record is incredible, but does he have the control over his swing and ball day in day out shot after shot that Hogan had? Not a chance. Hogan's ballstriking was machinelike, by contrast Tiger has gone thru at least three swings trying to find the kind of consistency that Hogan was renowned for. Yes we know he won majors with various swings but the thing is he himself was not quite happy or satisfied and thought there was someplace better swing wise.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Tiger's record is incredible, but does he have the control over his swing and ball day in day out shot after shot that Hogan had? Not a chance. Hogan's ballstriking was machinelike, by contrast Tiger has gone thru at least three swings trying to find the kind of consistency that Hogan was renowned for. Yes we know he won majors with various swings but the thing is he himself was not quite happy or satisfied and thought there was someplace better swing wise.

Keep in mind how many times Hogan went broke before he found his secret. Tiger is only what, 31? He won his majors undergoing swing changes. I don't think we've seen the best ballstriking from him yet. Hogan got ran off the tour at an age when Tiger was winning majors...and all he had to beat was Snead, Nelson, a couple of club pros, and a few guys from the bagdrop.

 

[Dariusz J.]

and all he had to beat was Snead, Nelson, a couple of club pros, and a few guys from the bagdrop.

So, you really think that it was easier for Hogan to beat Snead, Nelson and all other great players of the 50-ties than for Tiger to beat Singh or Mickelson ?
Give me a break...

Cheers