"You'll hit it worse for awhile"

[shortgamer]

What's up with this? I know Brian has said he likes to make changes while not bastardizing what the student already has. In my first lesson with Brian he was going back and forth between my father and me and the lesson was over but Brian said " you're not leaving me hitting the ball like that". So we stayed a little extra on his nickel and got me where I needed to be before we left.

Even this last Monday on that new instruction show the instructor said you'll hit it worse for awhile. Well I can't see anyone sticking with something that makes them hit the ball worse for very long. I don't know, it just seems like a total freaking copout to me. Like that statement is their insurance policy."Well I told you you woul.....blah blah blah......**** you.....

 

[pieman]

i agree. how could someone come out of a lesson not hitting it well and think that at some point it will just be there? brian's got the right attitude to getting his students swing better.

 

[Kevin Shields]

The way I see it, you should always hit at least SOME better and maybe better than you ever have during the lesson. That being said, learning a new swing pattern or change is difficult. Depending on how badly your swing is ingrained, making the transformation invariably involves a couple of relapses to the old. Sometimes when the student is left to himself, he may think he's doing what the instructor said but really isnt. Then, of course, there's the small matter of trusting the changes on the course.

If the teacher does a good job of fixing, the student knows why, and sees better ballflight, you really SHOULDN'T hit it worse. Ive never said that to a student and to actually tell someone that is a copout, I agree. i would lose some faith in a guy who lives by the mantra "you'll get worse before you get better" Manzella is so unique because rarely does he make total overhauls, but gently cruises people across the Matrix with the premise of never making them worse.

 

[birdie_man]

I bet some would see that as an opening to say he is too soft.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah, but...

I bet some would see that as an opening to say he is too soft.

That's what someone SELLING something might say.

Especially if they really can't live teach toe-to-toe with me.

Of course, you could always bury the video.

........................................................................

As far as the rest of the golfing world, saying "you will get worse before you get better" is a common phrase out of a teachers mouth.

I taught that way somewhat for a time, because, well, I was selling something. Junk.

You will lose WAY TOO MANY students that way, and I hate losing students.

I don't even change grips much anymore.

Just fix 'em, and work toward a custom pattern.

Easy.

If you know what you are doing.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I used to think that way too, until I started working with a GSED about 10 years ago. He really didn't say anything about it, but I noticed that I got better after each lesson. Now maintaining what he taught me was another thing. From there on in, I eschewed any teacher who said 'it's going to get worse before it gets better.'

Sounds good in 'Roadhouse', but it's garbage in golf.

And it doesn't surprise me that Brian doesn't subscribe to that theory.



3JACK

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Just think if you were learning to swim or skydive and your teacher told you that

 

[Kevin Shields]

Just think if you were learning to swim or skydive and your teacher told you that

Now that's funny

 

[jenhaoyen]

that's the thing i don't get.

 

[ggsjpc]

interesting

So hears the thing. In terms of actual motor skill retention, the "you might hit it worse for awhile" may have some validity.

In order for true motor skill retention to occur, the cognitive mind needs to be fully engaged to learn the feeling of the skill before it can be retained. When the cognitive mind is fully engaged in the process during the motion, some of the contact properties may get worse.

In a business where immediate improvement is desired, the drills that are taught are not designed to improve retention. The are designed to produce immediate "improvement".

It's like this: If you tell a person just learning multiplication to compute 33*48, they will go through a lengthy thought involved process to answer the question. Now if you ask the same person the same question 5 minutes later, they will recite the answer without going through the process because they remember it. Has this helped them improve their ability to multiply? No way. Drills in golf are very similar to this unless the instructor explains to the student how involved they must be to learn the feelings of the movement so they can retain it. The instructors job is to tell them if what they are feeling creates what the instructor wants. Assuming that is good information, the student will improve and retain that improvement instead of having "it" at the lesson and losing it when they leave.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So hears the thing. In terms of actual motor skill retention, the "you might hit it worse for awhile" may have some validity....

That's NOT THE POINT!!!!

The POINT is not hitting a bunch of shots BETTER in the first lesson.

Skill retention is another debate.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

blah blah blah.....if someone hit it worse before that left my lesson i wouldn't charge them.

The reality is if you know what you are doing and tell it to the student in a way they understand, they should get better and know how to stay better

 

[cmartingolf]

It's only happened a couple of times in my career, but I haven't charged a few students because I didn't bring my A game to the lesson and I didn't really help them. I failed them.

 

[jaridyard]

I offer a guarantee of ball flight improvement in a lesson, if I fail I don't charge. Every drill I give cannot be overdone as one of my pet hates is undoing someone's hard work because they were given a quick fix drill.

When the flightscope arrives, results will all be measured. There will be nowhere to hide!

 

[ggsjpc]

curious

I find it hard to believe that this many golf professionals would say they would expect to hit it better during the lesson each time they took a lesson. If they wouldn't why would they expect their students to. If that was the case, wouldn't you take a lesson much more often? Why wouldn't a person take a lesson every day, especially if most would be free (I offer a guarantee of ball flight improvement in a lesson, if I fail I don't charge.)

I understand that this is our goal, but it is not realistic. I would never tell someone this statement because it is just bad teaching to say it.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It is realistic if you know what u r doing...no matter who i have taught they come to me hitting it one way and they WILL be hitting it noticably better before they leave; however i admit that i have failed a student ONCE and i didn't make him pay.

People come to Brian Manzella or a Manzella instructor because they know when they leave they will be hitting it better end of story.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I understand...

I find it hard to believe that this many golf professionals would say they would expect to hit it better during the lesson each time they took a lesson.

This many?

As in the dozen folks on here?

There are 40,000 teachers of golf in the USA, and about 5 to 10,000 more worldwide.

I would say that 99% of them would never say:

"If you take a lesson from me, you will hit some shots better than you ever have, or ever have in a long time."​

Why wouldn't they?

Because...

They can't get folks to do that.

If that was the case, wouldn't you take a lesson much more often?

If that was the case, more people would take lessons, and they'd take them very often.

Why wouldn't a person take a lesson every day, especially if most would be free (I offer a guarantee of ball flight improvement in a lesson, if I fail I don't charge.)

Everyday?

I could promise you'd be happy.

Much easier to improve ball-flight in each and every lesson, during the first few, or first couple each season.

I understand that this is our goal, but it is not realistic.

If I ever stop being able to do it, I'll quit.

I would never tell someone this statement because it is just bad teaching to say it.

Dude,

You seriously need to come see me teach.

Really.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I find it hard to believe that this many golf professionals would say they would expect to hit it better during the lesson each time they took a lesson. If they wouldn't why would they expect their students to. If that was the case, wouldn't you take a lesson much more often? Why wouldn't a person take a lesson every day, especially if most would be free (I offer a guarantee of ball flight improvement in a lesson, if I fail I don't charge.)

I understand that this is our goal, but it is not realistic. I would never tell someone this statement because it is just bad teaching to say it.

You would really never tell someone this in a lesson? What DO you tell them?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Like I posted earlier,about ten years ago I was working with a GSED in Myrtle Beach and EVERY single time I got a lesson from him, I started hitting the ball better immediately. Now, maintaining that was a different thing, but I did hit the ball better.

That's what I expect from any lesson I take. I'm not expecting to reach my full potential or hit it better than I ever have, but *better* should suffice. And to think about it, golf may be the only sport or walk of life (that I can think of) where this phrase is used. I wouldn't go to a math tutor who would tell me 'it's going to get worse before it gets better', in the same sense I wouldn't send a kid to a QB coaching clinic that tells them it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I think those teachers who use that phrase simply cannot make it better on a consistent basis.




3JACK

 

[mjstrong]

The way I see it, you should always hit at least SOME better and maybe better than you ever have during the lesson. That being said, learning a new swing pattern or change is difficult.

I agree with this. Every student should at least be able to hit some shots better than they were before. They may not be at the automatically-repeating it stage yet, so there could be some lack of consistency at first. BUT, they should have an idea of what that better shot feels like, and work towards it...