"You'll hit it worse for awhile"

[Brian Manzella]

Please.

B. you seem determined to have the last word, so be my guest.

No, you are the guest.

Funny, you emailed me last night so I could move you into the group of forum members that can post.

And you first post was a rip.

Funny, eh?

But to dismiss Butch Harmon and Hank Haney as mere "method teachers"

They are. by ANY reasonable definitions, "Method Teachers."

...to assert that they "always" make tour caliber players worse before they make them better is silly

I never said that.

At the tour level, even telling someone totally bogus info, might make them play better today.

...undermines whatever credibility you're trying to establish.

Dude,

You came on my site to rip me. Which I am letting you take a shot at. You are getting hammered by me, and I have to worry about MY credibility?

Who are you?

I built this site MY WAY.

The credibility I have is simple:

The golfers who have bought my videos, learn something.

The teacher who have bought videos and been around this site, all tell me I have helped their teaching. This includes some Top 50 guys, and a couple of National Teachers of the Year. Three in fact.

Those two guys can teach anyone at any level.

Sure they can. So can lots other guys—at their level.

But, I have watched them teach live, and, well, it wasn't always pretty.

I will say that Butch is better than Haney "live on the tee," and Haney is better long term than Butchie.

And if their students get worse before they get better, well that proves my point, doesn't it?

Mine don't.

And your point is POINTLESS.

You lose, 100 to 0

Thanks and I'm done.

That would be nice.

You can stick around though, as long as you like, and I promise you will learn a lot.

 

[jimmyt]

Said in true "DITKA" fashion you beat him a 100 to 0.......

 

[shortgamer]

I think this thread shows how people view these so called guru's. They see them in magazines and beside pros at tournaments and think their gods. People don't realize that it's great marketing with a good dose of the right place at the right time. Good for them but I'll stick with the little Italian cause I know better.

 

[vjsinger]

Said in true "DITKA" fashion you beat him a 100 to 0.......

LOL

 

[Kevin Shields]

Brian, I think alot of people would enjoy a little tease, if you will. Perhaps a tiny insight into what you might have done with Tiger? Hmm, hmm?

 

[vjsinger]

Brian, I think alot of people would enjoy a little tease, if you will. Perhaps a tiny insight into what you might have done with Tiger? Hmm, hmm?

Soft Draw??

 

[tongzilla]

This is the point:

Both Butch and Hank were trying what ALL METHOD TEACHERS DO WHEN THEY TEACH GOOD PLAYERS, they try to justify their existence on planet Earth by finding a talented student and getting that student to succeed with the teacher's METHOD/PATTERN.

very well put...

 

[Steve Greffen]

Brian,

I have been thinking about this for a little while and have some questions regarding teaching the tour guys. We have debated P and B and their method in other threads, and obviously Butch and Hank with their "methods" here and there are obviously more method teachers on the tour that have had a lot of success with their players.

Is their success in spite of their doing and more contingent on the talent coming through in the players? (ie: Haney and Tiger) Do some of these method teachers stray from their mantra when dealing with individual talents? Does it just take longer for them to get their players to do it their way instead of modifying their method for the individual?

If you were to teach more tour players (like have a stable of guys that have Manzella as their teacher exclusively) would you identify each person individually, their strength and weaknesses and then develop a long term strategy, swing philosophy (set of components or swing pattern) and then guide them? Or does the tour player work in a week to week basis, I am tugging everthing left so fix it etc?

It seems like when I hear a tour player's teachers on the channel that does some golf and a whole lot of other BS, (I think its called The Golf Channel, although I dont know why) they are not too bright sounding or "in the know", but they are able to get results from their students. Is being a coach (leading the player, being a cheerleader) so helpful that it can make up for other weaknesses? I would assume that you would also acknowledge that there are some really good teachers out there. I would think the approach that you advocate would be much more popular and in demand.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I have been thinking about this for a little while and have some questions regarding teaching the tour guys. We have debated P and B and their method in other threads

I haven't debated their method.

In the "Biggest Lie" thread I said I like many elements of their pet pattern.

...obviously Butch and Hank with their "methods" here and there are obviously more method teachers on the tour that have had a lot of success with their players.

Correct.

Is their success in spite of their doing and more contingent on the talent coming through in the players? (ie: Haney and Tiger)

First of all, Tiger is the best player who ever lived. At worst, in the top 3. He is very golf talented, and could make any athletic pattern work if it was a valid pattern.

Haney's pattern is an athletic pattern, and is valid enough to have worked with other players like O'Meara.

Let's talk about being a "one pattern" teacher. Which, for a time, I was for 90% of my students (1987-1991).

If I had a shot at a dozen or two tour golfers during that period of time, I would have had at least one that would have been a good fit for that pattern.

It is a numbers game.

For example:

The Soft Draw Pattern, taught to 10 PGA Tour players as is, with next to no customization, would improve 20 to 30% of the players. Never Hook Again, about 10-20%, and the Soft Fade pattern, about a third (33%).

To me, those numbers suck hind tit.

It doesn't matter how good you teach, one pattern does NOT fit all. Ever. Never.

Do some of these method teachers stray from their mantra when dealing with individual talents?

Sure.

But, very little.

Does it just take longer for them to get their players to do it their way instead of modifying their method for the individual?

It takes WAY TOO LONG to teach someone a method.

But, every now and then, the right player comes along, and makes a teacher look good.

That's the problem.

Lets say a golfer is a great putter and a short hitter, but a bit crooked as well. They are good enough to keep their card, but that's about it.

This golfer's main technical issue is that they over lean their torso to the right on the backswing, and have a poor, unstable lower body through impact.

A teacher comes along with a pattern that features no right lean on the backswing, very little lower body action, and poor power production.

The student improves their accuracy because they don't get below plane with the "over lean," and hit is more solid with the quiet lower body.

The fact they don't gain power means little, because they were a short hitter before.

He will improve a lot, and the teacher will be able to say, "See, this pattern is great!!!"

If you were to teach more tour players (like have a stable of guys that have Manzella as their teacher exclusively) would you identify each person individually, their strength and weaknesses and then develop a long term strategy, swing philosophy (set of components or swing pattern) and then guide them?

Long-term strategies are great for junior golfers, and not bad for for average golfers, but the PGA Tour is not the place for guesstimates.

I'd do with a "stable" of PGA Tour players like I do with my stable of good players I have now.

If I listed the patterns and modifications of those patterns, they'd be all over the map.

And, remember Manzella Rule of Golf Teaching #11:

Teaching golf swings is like GARDENING, not like BUILDING BUILDINGS.

When you build buildings, you follow a strict blue print, and after it is complete, you just pressure wash it.

When you do landscaping, you might have a plan, but you design in the dirt, and if you do nothing, weeds grow. Some plants don't grow year round, etc.

Or does the tour player work in a week to week basis, I am tugging everthing left so fix it etc?

There would be an endless supply of this if they knew someone could fix it without OVERHAULING it.

It seems like when I hear a tour player's teachers (on the "golf" channel) they are not too bright sounding or "in the know", but they are able to get results from their students.

I can't even watch the Golf Channel.

There are a lot more decent teachers on tour now than 10 years ago.

Getting a player to play good is a lot different that talking about the golf swing and sounding like you know something.

Trust me, it is WAY easier to get a player to play good.

Is being a coach (leading the player, being a cheerleader) so helpful that it can make up for other weaknesses?

Absolutely.

I would assume that you would also acknowledge that there are some really good teachers out there.

Absolutely.

Way better that the "troubleshooters."

I would think the approach that you advocate would be much more popular and in demand.

That's my job.

Nobody else even is trying to sell this idea.

 

[otto6457]

B. you seem determined to have the last word, so be my guest.
But to dismiss Butch Harmon and Hank Haney as mere "method teachers" and to assert that they "always" make tour caliber players worse before they make them better is silly and undermines whatever credibility you're trying to establish. Those two guys can teach anyone at any level. And if their students get worse before they get better, well that proves my point, doesn't it?
Thanks and I'm done.

Nope....this is incorrect. I worked with Haney himself and one of his top instructors for years.

I got the same lesson taught in slightly different ways since 1989. In all of those years and in all of those lessons, a major swing flaw was ignored because it wasn't part of the "Haney Method".

I don't know who you are....but you are a clueless little troll and I suspect Brian and his staff have forgotten more about the golf swing than you will ever know.

Next time, you might consider that you shouldn't piss on your host's carpet. It's a good way to get your nose rubbed in the mess you leave.

 

[wdking]

Just my two cents

Before I discovered this site, I spent the better part of a day, 950 bucks worth, at the Rick Smith golf academy, in FL. All I got from it was the fix for a too much around backswing...keep your left wrist cupped all the way back. I almost killed the man himself with a hosel rocket. Never mind I was hitting high flip hooks, and my backswing was flatter than a table top.
All it took was to show my armpits and catch the drop with your pivot....No I didn't drink any Koolaid, but Brian complimented me on my motion during golf school last year.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Now... That's Funny.....

Before I discovered this site, I spent the better part of a day, 950 bucks worth, at the Rick Smith golf academy, in FL. All I got from it was the fix for a too much around backswing...keep your left wrist cupped all the way back. I almost killed the man himself with a hosel rocket. Never mind I was hitting high flip hooks, and my backswing was flatter than a table top.
All it took was to show my armpits and catch the drop with your pivot....No I didn't drink any Koolaid, but Brian complimented me on my motion during golf school last year.

 

[Richie3Jack]

All it took was to show my armpits and catch the drop with your pivot....No I didn't drink any Koolaid, but Brian complimented me on my motion during golf school last year.

For me it was Brian's 'Hips, Hands and Clubhead' YouTube video. Did wonders for my golf swing.

About 12 years ago I had a friend who was a good mini-tour player (FWIW) and was a pretty darn good ballstriker. He traveled all the way to Texas to get lessons from Butch at the time and it really killed his golf swing and cost him a lot of money and caused a lot of frustration. He eventually went back to his old teacher and started hitting the ball well and in his words Butch 'basically taught me a few specialty shots' and didn't have much good to say about his teaching ability. Anyway, he quit the game about 5 years ago and I often think about how good he could've been with better instruction from guys like Brian and a few others.



3JACK

 

[Brian Manzella]

You are not going to believe this......

I found out who "tilthatday" was.

You see, we are pretty good investigators here at BM.com, something we got really good at when CarolGalleyZ/Playa_Brian told my wife to leave me.

When I found out who this "Tilthatday" was I could not belive it!

It is a good friend of mine, who may be one of the best students I ever had.

Here is the TRUE STORY:

In 1985 I was working three days a week for Stan Stopa at his high-end golf repair shop in Metairie, Louisiana, ProTech Golf, and teaching full-time at City Park.

Stanley calls me one day at ProTech, "Nummy, I got one for ya. He says he is a lefty, who learned to play righty, and couldn't break 120 doing that. Now dis guy wants to learn lefty. You can have him."

So, we set up our first golf lesson at Audubon Park where Stan was the pro.

I was expecting too see the most un-athletic specimen I had ever seen.

When this nice looking, well dressed, muscular young attorney met me on the practice ground, I thought something had to me wrong.

It was.

I think he said he had gone out and played lefty right before the lesson and shot 120+

It might have been 140, because, well, he was awful and could barely make contact.

I remember we worked a lot on the pivot, he did much better, and we were on our way.

He took about a lesson a week from me at City Park, and was a very good student who practiced, and played a lot.

He shot 81 within 18 months.

A few years later, I played with him at English Turn and he shot 73.

I should have won an award.

What happened?

Life.

I ran to Louisville in 1993 for a year, and then again for good in 1997, trying to find a way out of the dungeon of New Orleans golf, and make a name for myself.

In the meantime, this poor soul winds up with all sorts of teachers, famous and infamous, and is now a shell of his former self, a 12 handicap, who doesn't play much.

I emailed him today.

"Why didn't you tell me who you were?

I though you were a competitor trying to upset the apple cart.

We have a lot of those around here.

I played English Turn today, it is really good shape.


Hope all is well and sorry I ripped you (even though I was right )."​

He replied and we wound up on the phone.

He told me he was "on a rib."

That means he was PULLING MY LEG....Kidding me.

Dick BLEPPING Tracey!

I told him, "I gave it to ya pretty good, huh?" He laughed and said, "yup, 100 to nothin."

He scheduled a lesson with me at 1pm on Monday.

So, to recap, a guy who took lesson from me and improved 60 shots in a year or so, and could once could shoot par, has gotten worse going to name instructors in the past few years, and was arguing with me on my website about whether I could get anyone to improve a lot over time.

My dad might be right about the movie.

 

[sulliv21]

BM - How do you handle students who want a "pretty swing" and not a truly functioning swing? It sounds as though your teaching takes what the student has and ultimately leaves them with a custom pattern, but this pattern (I'm guessing here) doesn't always look like what they see on the golf channel. If they end up with a strong grip, pre turned shoulders and a full roll, they're not gonna look or feel like Tiger obviously...

Do your students ever push back on the "custom pattern" process and ask for a swing that looks like Ernie, Tiger, etc...

In the end I don't care what it looks like as long as it produces results but I had to ask.

 

[tilthatday]

Guilty

Brian "outed" me.
I've been to them all, folks and now I'm back where I started. And I feel good about it.
Thanks Brian and I'll see you Monday.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great Question!

BM - How do you handle students who want a "pretty swing" and not a truly functioning swing? It sounds as though your teaching takes what the student has and ultimately leaves them with a custom pattern, but this pattern (I'm guessing here) doesn't always look like what they see on the golf channel. If they end up with a strong grip, pre turned shoulders and a full roll, they're not gonna look or feel like Tiger obviously...

Do your students ever push back on the "custom pattern" process and ask for a swing that looks like Ernie, Tiger, etc...

In the end I don't care what it looks like as long as it produces results but I had to ask.

I wouldn't mind it a lick, but I have no long term students who look like Trevino, Furyk, Miller Barber, or Allen Doyle.

Let's run through the list....

Finney, Bartlett, Davis, Hamburger, Toms, Dorman, Gordy/Brett/Josh/Lindsey Gahm, Smither, Shields.

Lots of pretty swings.

Need to make a loop of all of them one day.

Now I know you meant regular golfers too, but I pride myself in developing people who LOOK LIKE GOLFERS and hit it good and where they are looking.

I think my students look pretty.

I just get there a little differently.

 

[BurnItUp]

I've been to them all, folks and now I'm back where I started.

Would you be kind enough to provide an insight into your golfing journey?

I will understand if you don't wish to dredge up painful memories.

 

[wdking]

Billy:
What was funnier was the man wore sunglasses the whole day hiding a black eye. I did get to work with Jim Sowerwine, the inventor of the Inside Approach and a great guy.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Billy:
What was funnier was the man wore sunglasses the whole day hiding a black eye. I did get to work with Jim Sowerwine, the inventor of the Inside Approach and a great guy.

How was his teaching?