4/10,000 of a second

[mandrin]

Originally posted by denny.

I have heard 5 of the 50 C.D. recordings of Homer Kelley teaching class's (the MOST valuable C.D.s on the planet).Chuck works here in Mesa Az.(We have 3 A.I.s here).
Yoda asked Homer if we should concentrate on a stationary left shoulder ------------Since this was the second time Yoda asked the same question-- Homer said forcefully "FORGETABOUTIT" " I see no value of monitoring the left shoulder".
Holenone correct me if I error.
Another time someone in the class asked about the problem of a moving center i.e." The left shoulder"---
Homer said " In 4/10,000 of a second that the club is on the ball that it din't matter

Homer, above, states very clearly that the duration of impact is such a tiny fleeting moment that it really does not matter to have a moving center for the golf swing. It is totally immaterial.

In ‘The Golfing Machine’ on Page 12 we find,

“The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression”, and,

“The Secret of Golf is sustaining the Line of Compression.”

Now this is getting a bit confusing. The line of compression exists only for 4/10,000 of a second and we are clearly being invited to manipulate this line of compression.

What am I to do? What are the specific actions to be taken, during this illusive fleeting 4/10,000 of a second, to sustain and manipulate the line of compression?

Homer himself however seems to tell us also with great emphasis not to bother - it is just too short of a time span to be able to do anything?

This is really important as Homer considered sustaining the line of compression as being ‘the secret of golf’, constituting the essential core element of his G.O.L.F .system.

It is clear that we have here a intriguing contradiction, since once the clubface starts colliding with the ball, there is not a single useful manipulation a human can perform during the next 4/10,000 of a second.

mandrin

 

[Turfspanker]

It's all programmed before you start the club back. As I'm sure you are aware, contact isn't even felt until the ball is long gone. Maybe you can provide the math behind synaptic bioelectrical transport.

Mandrin,

Keep seeking here and on other forums. TGM can and will help you if you give a chance.
See a good AI and he'll get you the conventional swing you've been searching for. It won't be based on a Model like you are used to in the SA world. It will be based on your individual balanced and integrated component alignments and preferences.
For that matter, give Brian a visit. He's one of the best.

Happy Searching,

Turfspanker

 

[TGMfan]

mandrin,

I hope you don't reduce your sexual experiences to the time it takes you to have an orgasm. The Line of Compression passes through the ball, and they're superimposed for the brief period of Impact, but the joy of a solidly struck shot starts long before (and, for some, goes on after) the ball is actually on the clubface.

Or do you already know that and are just trying to rile up the natives again?

 

[6bee1dee]

Mandy, move the chalkboard and swing the club. You are letting your brain defeat you from the start.

Line of compression, hinge action, swivel, educated hands, angle/arc of approach, FLYING WEDGES, all this works. Drop the pocket protector and learn to put the clubface between the golf ball and the clubhead.

 

[birdie_man]

What is flying wedges? Everyone keeps talking about it....

my wedges fly sometimes- but only if I'm angry...

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

What is flying wedges? Everyone keeps talking about it....

my wedges fly sometimes- but only if I'm angry...

The Flying Wedges are the flat left wrist and the bent right wrist. There are two wedges:

Left Arm Flying Wedge is the Plane of the Wrist cock. It is the vertical left arm, a karate chop that releases accumulator #3. The flail.

The Right Arm Flying Wedge is the Plane of the Wrist bend. A level bent 90 degree bend into the flat left wrist - a strong powerful strut on the Horizontal plane. It is the right forearm thrust.

Both wedges remain intact once established at Take-up into impact. Powerful stuff.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

This is really important as Homer considered sustaining the line of compression as being ‘the secret of golf’, constituting the essential core element of his G.O.L.F .system.

That is not "The Secret" according to Homer. LAG is the secret.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin


Homer, above, states very clearly that the duration of impact is such a tiny fleeting moment that it really does not matter to have a moving center for the golf swing. It is totally immaterial.

In ‘The Golfing Machine’ on Page 12 we find,

“The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression”, and,

“The Secret of Golf is sustaining the Line of Compression.”

Now this is getting a bit confusing. The line of compression exists only for 4/10,000 of a second and we are clearly being invited to manipulate this line of compression.

What am I to do? What are the specific actions to be taken, during this illusive fleeting 4/10,000 of a second, to sustain and manipulate the line of compression?

Homer himself however seems to tell us also with great emphasis not to bother - it is just too short of a time span to be able to do anything?

This is really important as Homer considered sustaining the line of compression as being ‘the secret of golf’, constituting the essential core element of his G.O.L.F .system.

It is clear that we have here a intriguing contradiction, since once the clubface starts colliding with the ball, there is not a single useful manipulation a human can perform during the next 4/10,000 of a second.

mandrin

In reality, the ball separates from the clubface WITHIN it's diameter (1.68") in the 0.4 ms of impact duration. What this means is that all of Homer's sketches between pages 13 to 21 are horrendously out of scale and perspective. His LOC geometry is incorrect because his Free Body Diagramming is all wrong. Any first year Engineering student would recognize this too.

All the vector diagrams Homer sketches between the ball and clubface are pure nonsense and only a concoction of his vivid imagination. If he tried to present his vector solutions to an engineer, Homer would be rebuffed with extreme prejudice! In fact Homer does not know what a Vector quantity is because on page 16 he lists "Inertia - I " as a Vector Symbol. I have never seen Inertia described as a vector, only a scalar quantity. Incredible !!!!

Then on page 24 under Directional Vectors, Homer invents a brand new "Law of Centrifugal Force - which requires that the ball leave its circular path at right angles to the radius of that path at the point at which it leaves that path." Astounding, what else can one say !!!

On page 12 Homer declares:

"Because this book is based on Law - the geometry and physics of Force and Motion -this chapter (2) is included to show those who understand such things, how they are applied herein."

Since Homer has botched the book with his ignorance about Newtonian Physics - Statics and Dynamics - it would be well advisable to ignore this chapter to provide some credence to the rest of the book. Perhaps somebody like Brian Manzella with his Doctorate of Golf Stroke Engineering might intervene here and enlighten us on the veracity, or lack thereof, contained in Chapter 2.

Science is universal and it depends on numbers to prove it's theories. Homer calculates nothing because there are absolutely no numerical proofs for his solutions .... only bad sketches, fuzzy photos and written assertions. We know there are some great golfing pearls in TGM, but they seem to get lost in the scientific crap that Homer shovels copiously in a vain attempt to achieve some kind of unassailable credibility, but only reveals his tragic ignorance of the very science he depends on to make his case.

Homer only uses "intuitive physics" to sell The Star System of G.O.L.F., because he is not qualified to apply the science of physics to his golfswing theories. I hope it was not Homer's intent to scam us into believing that he was qualified to present us with Newtonian Physics to back up TGM. Sorry folks, but that's reality !

 

[6bee1dee]

The Line of compression is the problem Homer first started to solve when he started out. Yes, ball compression is VERY important. If you ever felt it, you would understand.

Ball compression allows the ball to remain on the clubface longer and not spin off the clubface. This is what Moe felt because he hit the sweetpot and use horizonal hinging, which is didn't feel - he though he drove his arms down the line. Go check the tapes.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by horton


Homer only uses "intuitive physics" to sell The Star System of G.O.L.F., because he is not qualified to apply the science of physics to his golfswing theories. I hope it was not Homer's intent to scam us into believing that he was qualified to present us with Newtonian Physics to back up TGM. Sorry folks, but that's reality !

Homer didn't scam, he taught golf. Do you even play?

Chapter 2 as presented works and translates onto the range perfectly.

What system of instruction do you follow? How is your game? This is golf we are talking about.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

Then on page 24 under Directional Vectors, Homer invents a brand new "Law of Centrifugal Force - which requires that the ball leave its circular path at right angles to the radius of that path at the point at which it leaves that path." Astounding, what else can one say !!!

I'm sorry, but are you saying that the ball will NOT leave the circlar path of the clubhead at right angles to the swing radius at seperation?

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

This is really important as Homer considered sustaining the line of compression as being ‘the secret of golf’, constituting the essential core element of his G.O.L.F .system.

That is not "The Secret" according to Homer. LAG is the secret.

Ringer, I did not invent it. I faithfully reproduced, as it appears in chapter 2 - STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES.

The Secret of Golf is sustaining the “Line of Compression”.

Conclusion - Homer was a man of multiple secrets - ‘lag’ and ‘sustaining the line of compression’.

mandrin

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

The Line of compression is the problem Homer first started to solve when he started out. Yes, basll compression is VERY important. If you ever felt it, you would understand.

Ball compression allows the ball to remain on the clubface longer and not spin off the clubface. This is what Moe felt because he hit the sweetpot and use horizonal hinging, which is didn't feel - he though he drove his arms down the line. Go check the tapes.

Please define LOC so that there is no disagreement of it's interpretation. My understanding is that it occurs during the 0.4 ms of ball-club contact over about 1/2 inch of arc path, when the force of the club is applied to the ball. My questioning of Homer's so-called LOC vector is that it seems to deviate from the normally acknowledged resolution of impact vectors as used in Engineering Statics and Kinetics. What did Homer know that the rest of the engineering world didn't, causing him to rewrite Newton's Laws that pertain to vector analysis?

You state that ball compression allows the ball to remain on the clubface longer. How much longer to significantly affect ball spin? Do you have any scientific numbers to back up your statement or is it just word of mouth and feel-sharing?

To be scientifically credible, somebody other than Homer should check and confirm his golfswing theories .... unless TGM is considered absolute gospel to not be questioned or contradicted.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by horton

Then on page 24 under Directional Vectors, Homer invents a brand new "Law of Centrifugal Force - which requires that the ball leave its circular path at right angles to the radius of that path at the point at which it leaves that path." Astounding, what else can one say !!!

I'm sorry, but are you saying that the ball will NOT leave the circlar path of the clubhead at right angles to the swing radius at seperation?

What I am questioning is how a so-called "centrifugal force" whose direction is coincident or parallel with the radius can fling off a ball at right angles to that radius. Does Homer's Law of Centrifugal Force allow it to make a 90º turn and send the ball off in the direction of the circular path?

Honestly, I have never heard of Homer's "Law of Centrifugal Force" used in scientific analysis or engineering design. Scientific laws require equations that quantify the effects of the Law. Homer provides absolutely no scientific equations to validate his theories even though he proclaims new Laws of science. It just does not exist in the real world of science, only in Homer's world of G.O.L.F..

Do you not see the problem with Homer's intuitive physics and then to attempt to understand TGM? If the science is wrong, how can the golfswing theory be valid? It can't even with anecdotal experience that cannot be directly linked to TGM, because it depends on subjective feel. A concensus of "feel" for the LOC does not constitute the existence of the LOC, only a bunch of golfers agreeing about something they don't really understand.

 

[corky05]

Who was Homer's audience? Who was the book written for? Was it written for submission into a peer reviewed engineering journal? Are humans machines? Is Golf Machine a metaphor? Metaphor : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them.
Is that what great golf pros do everyday, communicate ideas through analogy? Homer's language works for golfers and instructors.

Would math equations serve the golfing public similarly? Not a chance!

You harp about what a difficult read it is, yet, your solution is math equations. You consider math equations stimulating for the golf enthusiast?

The yellow book is a better reference for a golfer to better his/her game. You keep haunting the sights where everybody is waiting for "magic in a bottle" or a gimmick. The people here or at similar sights are hard workers and understand that there are no short cuts.
Tell my 7yr old, TGM is difficult. I didn't shoot 77s and 37s at that age. I also wasn't exposed to the three imperatives at that age.
Maybe, the problem is not with the book? Take a long look in the mirror, before you send the three payments of $39.95 for the next great solution.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by horton
Please define LOC so that there is no disagreement of it's interpretation. My understanding is that it occurs during the 0.4 ms of ball-club contact over about 1/2 inch of arc path, when the force of the club is applied to the ball.

LOC is a line, the direction of the impact force. You must be thinking of ball compression, how silly.

quote:
My questioning of Homer's so-called LOC vector is that it seems to deviate from the normally acknowledged resolution of impact vectors as used in Engineering Statics and Kinetics. What did Homer know that the rest of the engineering world didn't, causing him to rewrite Newton's Laws that pertain to vector analysis?

You state that ball compression allows the ball to remain on the clubface longer. How much longer to significantly affect ball spin? Do you have any scientific numbers to back up your statement or is it just word of mouth and feel-sharing?

To be scientifically credible, somebody other than Homer should check and confirm his golfswing theories .... unless TGM is considered absolute gospel to not be questioned or contradicted.

A horizontal hinge will keepo the ball n the face longer then an angled hinge which is compression leakage becuae the ball will slide up and to the right on the clubface. I think you know very little about impact and how a clubface works.

It has past every test for over twenty years.

Once again horton the who, the botton line is that TGM has produced outstanding golf swings and golfers. What form of instruction do you follow?

If it is SA or natural golfer, I apologize, I see so many golfers on tour using that swing, it must be good. Even Sandy Lyle doesn't use it.

Do you play golf? Can you hit a golf ball? Oh that's right your body won't let you play, sorry again.

 

[mandrin]

In my opening post I simply reproduced Homer’s own words and some lines out of his book.

I pointed out a contradiction made by Homer for all to see.

Several posts down the line not even the slightest reference to the contradiction.

Do I take it therefore that it is not important that Homer seems to contradict himself?

mandrin

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

In my opening post I simply reproduced Homer’s own words and some lines out of his book.

I pointed out a contradiction made by Homer for all to see.

Several posts down the line not even the slightest reference to the contradiction.

Do I take it therefore that it is not important that Homer seems to contradict himself?

mandrin

No, we know what is important and what he means. We are lucky that we have an instructor taught by Homer Kelley. Still you both refuse to accept the bottom line. Better Golfers. How is you instruction these days? You changed back to who from what guy from where?

BTW that Rosen guy is a hoot, how many planes is that guy on? I thought you were single axis merrymen.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

LOC is a line, the direction of the impact force. You must be thinking of ball compression, how silly.

Please look at the illustration on page 13 - 2-A Resilience, and tell me that LOC does not exist during ball compression. I seem to see a LOC arrow during the BALL UNDER COMPRESSION state ... or is that silly too?

Also please refer to page 19 where, for the cut shot, the impact or clubhead force (CF), is not in the same direction as the LOC. How do you explain this discrepancy in your definition of LOC?

quote:A horizontal hinge will keepo the ball n the face longer then an angled hinge which is compression leakage becuae the ball will slide up and to the right on the clubface. I think you know very little about impact and how a clubface works.

It has past every test for over twenty years.

I may not fully comprehend how Homer comes to some of his scientific conclusions, but I do know that he is not correctly applying force vector analysis to ball-club impact. I would like to know from you what scientific tests Homer's theories have passed over twenty years. It seems as if nobody in the scientific world of golf even mentions TGM as an authoritative source of knowledge about the golfswing.

Perhaps Homer knew something about the golfswing that egghead science types don't, but Homer has certainly stuck his foot into scientific quicksand with his proclamations that his theories have a valid scientific underpinning, (but disregarding the scientific gaffes strewn throughout his book).

If only the World of Homer could somehow match up with the World of Science .... and not only depend on golfers with G.E.Ds.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by horton

Then on page 24 under Directional Vectors, Homer invents a brand new "Law of Centrifugal Force - which requires that the ball leave its circular path at right angles to the radius of that path at the point at which it leaves that path." Astounding, what else can one say !!!

I'm sorry, but are you saying that the ball will NOT leave the circlar path of the clubhead at right angles to the swing radius at seperation?

What I am questioning is how a so-called "centrifugal force" whose direction is coincident or parallel with the radius can fling off a ball at right angles to that radius. Does Homer's Law of Centrifugal Force allow it to make a 90º turn and send the ball off in the direction of the circular path?

Honestly, I have never heard of Homer's "Law of Centrifugal Force" used in scientific analysis or engineering design. Scientific laws require equations that quantify the effects of the Law. Homer provides absolutely no scientific equations to validate his theories even though he proclaims new Laws of science. It just does not exist in the real world of science, only in Homer's world of G.O.L.F..

Do you not see the problem with Homer's intuitive physics and then to attempt to understand TGM? If the science is wrong, how can the golfswing theory be valid? It can't even with anecdotal experience that cannot be directly linked to TGM, because it depends on subjective feel. A concensus of "feel" for the LOC does not constitute the existence of the LOC, only a bunch of golfers agreeing about something they don't really understand.

On this, I know quite a bit. In fact centrifugal force is the force concieved through Newtons Third law for the continual accelleration placed on the club through continual change in direction.. yet all force is linear, making the inertia of the ball at the moment of seperation linear on the tangent exactly at right angle to the radius of the swing at seperation. Quite a well known FACT and basic principle behind the Coriolis Force.