4/10,000 of a second

[corky05]

You have a problem with contradiction? You're worthy of casting the first stone?

(mandrin quote) That makes it for newcomers difficult to understand TGM, Homer’s ideas being explained by using his expressions and phrases, which are a bit particular. People seemingly study Homer’s book for years and yet not feeling they really understand.( End quote)

Homer knew his audience. You don't. "people seemingly study for years and yet not feeling they really understand" That's exactly what a group of golf pros assembled and looking at your math equation are saying to each other right now.
Now thats what I call a contradiction!

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer On this, I know quite a bit. In fact centrifugal force is the force concieved through Newtons Third law for the continual accelleration placed on the club through continual change in direction.. yet all force is linear, making the inertia of the ball at the moment of seperation linear on the tangent exactly at right angle to the radius of the swing at seperation. Quite a well known FACT and basic principle behind the Coriolis Force.

For somebody who is labelled as a "Very Distinguished Colleague" on this forum, I think you have outdone yourself. Congratulations for your enlightened contribution to the discussion.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

In my opening post I simply reproduced Homer’s own words and some lines out of his book.

I pointed out a contradiction made by Homer for all to see.

Several posts down the line not even the slightest reference to the contradiction.

Do I take it therefore that it is not important that Homer seems to contradict himself?

mandrin

The apparent contradiction you refer to, namely:

quote:In ‘The Golfing Machine’ on Page 12 we find,

“The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression”, and,

“The Secret of Golf is sustaining the Line of Compression.

, may not be a contradiction at all if there is an explanation somewhere in TGM as to how the LOC manipulation is sustained over the impact event of 0.4 ms over an arc path distance of about 1/2 inch between contact and separation.

Perhaps somebody with some competence in understanding what is actually written in the book could step forward and resolve what you perceive as an obvious contradiction by Homer.

 

[mandrin]

Horton, my reference to a contradiction has per se nothing to do with understanding any complex problems associated with a comprehension of the line of compression. It is very simply the fact that one can conclude clearly from his advice given verbally and from what is written that he contradicts himself.

Homer clearly considered the time span of impact, 4/10,000 of a sec, too small for anything to happen during this interval. Therefore then nevertheless wanting you to manipulate the line of compression during that same interval is an obvious contradiction.

There is no science, mathematics or physics involved. Just applying common sense. I had hoped this would stimulate some thinking, but it produces the usual answer, e.g., being superior golfers.

mandrin

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

In my opening post I simply reproduced Homer’s own words and some lines out of his book.

I pointed out a contradiction made by Homer for all to see.

Several posts down the line not even the slightest reference to the contradiction.

Do I take it therefore that it is not important that Homer seems to contradict himself?

mandrin

The apparent contradiction you refer to, namely:

quote:In ‘The Golfing Machine’ on Page 12 we find,

“The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression”, and,

“The Secret of Golf is sustaining the Line of Compression.

, may not be a contradiction at all if there is an explanation somewhere in TGM as to how the LOC manipulation is sustained over the impact event of 0.4 ms over an arc path distance of about 1/2 inch between contact and separation.

Perhaps somebody with some competence in understanding what is actually written in the book could step forward and resolve what you perceive as an obvious contradiction by Homer.

 

[horton]

mandrin --- Please refer to page 232 of TGM (mine is the 1982 edition), and in particular to the 5th paragraph namely:

"The completely scientific approach would require it to be recognized that the ball also is a computer. In four ten-thousandths of a second it can receive, analyze and respond to the impulses it is handed during Impact. Then obviously, Impact is the programming of the Ball-Computer. The false notion that impact is so fleeting that it's programming is just unavoidably haphazard, encourages the wild flipping of Clubheads that passes for golf technique. So -- as usual, a computer blindly complies with it's programming and can be no more precise than it's programming. In other words -- "Precision in -- Precision out."

What do you make of this proclamation by Homer? It sounds to me that he actually believes that the Impact event can be manipulated and sustained ... but how?

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Ringer On this, I know quite a bit. In fact centrifugal force is the force concieved through Newtons Third law for the continual accelleration placed on the club through continual change in direction.. yet all force is linear, making the inertia of the ball at the moment of seperation linear on the tangent exactly at right angle to the radius of the swing at seperation. Quite a well known FACT and basic principle behind the Coriolis Force.

For somebody who is labelled as a "Very Distinguished Colleague" on this forum, I think you have outdone yourself. Congratulations for your enlightened contribution to the discussion.

That is my lable not because of my affiliation to the forum but rather the number of posts I have contributed. I am not an A.I. Just a well informed individual.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by horton

mandrin --- Please refer to page 232 of TGM (mine is the 1982 edition), and in particular to the 5th paragraph namely:

"The completely scientific approach would require it to be recognized that the ball also is a computer. In four ten-thousandths of a second it can receive, analyze and respond to the impulses it is handed during Impact. Then obviously, Impact is the programming of the Ball-Computer. The false notion that impact is so fleeting that it's programming is just unavoidably haphazard, encourages the wild flipping of Clubheads that passes for golf technique. So -- as usual, a computer blindly complies with it's programming and can be no more precise than it's programming. In other words -- "Precision in -- Precision out."

What do you make of this proclamation by Homer? It sounds to me that he actually believes that the Impact event can be manipulated and sustained ... but how?

I'm not your Mandy, but you would need to know how the clubface works on a golf ball, which I mentioned earlier. There is a hinge action, horizontal, angled or vericle that effects your the ball comes off the clubface. I guess with your instruction, the impact is uncontrolled, how sad. How? Come learn. Leave the bull **** at the door. You were close when you said maybe it works in practice, it does.
Control the clubface, you control the ball, control the ball you control the game.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

Control the clubface, you control the ball, control the ball you control the game.

How do you manipulate and sustain control of the clubface through the Impact event from initial contact to separation in the 0.4 ms, and about 1/2 inch of arc path, which according to the writings of Homer Kelley on page 12 is the "Line of Compression"?

This may include any hingings that occur prior to Impact, but I am only concerned about the Impact event where Homer illustrates the LOC as being generated from initial contact to separation.

Thanks. (Perhaps you may wish to refer this question to BrianM when he returns from FL.)

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by horton

mandrin --- Please refer to page 232 of TGM (mine is the 1982 edition), and in particular to the 5th paragraph namely:

"The completely scientific approach would require it to be recognized that the ball also is a computer. In four ten-thousandths of a second it can receive, analyze and respond to the impulses it is handed during Impact. Then obviously, Impact is the programming of the Ball-Computer. The false notion that impact is so fleeting that it's programming is just unavoidably haphazard, encourages the wild flipping of Clubheads that passes for golf technique. So -- as usual, a computer blindly complies with it's programming and can be no more precise than it's programming. In other words -- "Precision in -- Precision out."

What do you make of this proclamation by Homer? It sounds to me that he actually believes that the Impact event can be manipulated and sustained ... but how?

Horton, I agree, it indicates that Homer believes something can be done during impact, further confirming clearly the contradiction I noticed between his verbal opinion, when answering questions about the left shoulder and statements in his book.

One indication of possible manipulation is perhaps the notion of sustaining the line of compression through impact to prevent deceleration during the time ball and club head travel together, ( e.g., 2-E Impact Deceleration). A simple application of the ‘principle of impulse and momentum’ will show however this to be an illusion.

mandrin

 

[MizunoJoe]

Do they really want to know? And, will they understand? Should I tell them?

NO, because the answers require discussion of Hinge Action and SHAFT LOADING, for which those requisite differential equations have not yet been developed. So I will ABSTAIN.

 

[corky05]

Do you mean to tell me there's not a tiny little computor in each golf ball? Tell me it's not so! I will have lost all faith and trust if this is not ,so.................

Guys I've enoyed being over here, but, I gotta go! I just hack sawed one of my very best golf balls, it has a stripe on it for alignment and sez "Range" on the side, and by golly, theres no damn computer inside. This and the fact that those boys fling all them fancy equations around. I'm heading for the hills!
I'm just ticked I had to ruin one of my tournament balls to find this out, damn!

 

[Turfspanker]

Folks,

These guys have already made up their mind about Homer and TGM. We can sit here for days and waste time refuting and providing proof against their drivel but it will fall on deaf ears. One can only guess why they detest TGM so much. They must also despise Hogans 5 lessons and Power Golf.
I had a conversation with Jack K once and I have to admit, the arguments presented seem to come right out of his script. I have a video of his swing by the way, it would be fun to show side by side with Yoda or Brian. It makes Charles Barkley look good!

Turfspanker

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Turfspanker

Folks,

These guys have already made up their mind about Homer and TGM. We can sit here for days and waste time refuting and providing proof against their drivel but it will fall on deaf ears. One can only guess why they detest TGM so much.

Turfspanker

That's an unfair characterization of mandrin or me. We are only pointing out Homer's bad science and questioning whether TGM is a scientific work or only another golfswing method based on Homer's anecdotal experiences and observations.

Homer espoused science, and if that is the basis of TGM then somebody had better defend Homer's science. Obviously there is nobody currently on this forum who can do that and only attempt to defend Homer with slurs on those who would question his science. Homer's TGM must stand the test of science if his book is to be credible as a scientifically-based work.

You just can't defend Homer's science by claiming that "the proof is in the pudding". What is abundantly evident on this and any other TGM forum is that everybody's TGM pudding is a different flavor and for the topping everybody is struggling to understand what Homer meant in the details of his monumental creation.

 

[Ringer]

horton... Due to the distance which the shoulder moves during the release motion, as compared to the hands, it is quite possible to alter the way the LOC is sustained. The shoulder does very little, but the hands do. Forget about the shoulder for impact.. but be concious of the hands. Seems a very fair and reasonable thing to me... and taking an excerpt from one part of the book which is discussing something else entirely different to say there is a contradiction is the equivilant of a poor political ad.

I agree with mandrins science, but I do not agree with your tactics.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

horton... Due to the distance which the shoulder moves during the release motion, as compared to the hands, it is quite possible to alter the way the LOC is sustained. The shoulder does very little, but the hands do. Forget about the shoulder for impact.. but be concious of the hands.

Fair enough ... now tell us what the hands must do during the release motion to alter the way the LOC is sustained through Impact. I think that was in part, mandrin's original query ... and I hope you do not consider that to be a questionable tactic on my part.

 

[Martee]

Maybe a few of those who are qustioning the LOC, should read the definition in the back of the book to start with.

This should inform you that the LOC is NOT just from Impact ot Separation.

Kelley's statement as was Hogans, that it is too short of time period to try and manipulate something during impact.

There are many things you can do to disturb the LOC prior to getting to the ball, all of which will have an effect upon the ball result.

It is quite simple and there are no contradictions here.

 

[corky05]

How about posting your swing, Horton and Mandy? Its gotta be solid! You guys have such a solid grasp on this stuff. You'll put Yoda's swing to shame! come on! Post your swings! Put up or shut up. You guys must own twenty thousand dollars in geeky video and computor equipment. Post those swings and slow it down, break down how it should really be done. Your swings will do circles around that old Yoda dude. Bring it.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Maybe a few of those who are qustioning the LOC, should read the definition in the back of the book to start with.

I have read the definition of LOC namely: "The direction of the Impact Force, as related to the various centerlines, for determining Ball Behaviour."

I equate Impact Force to Clubhead Force (CF) per page 16 and the LOC as shown in pictures on pages 13, 19, 21 with all the impact vectors according to Homers analysis. Apart from the reference to LOC on page 12 and the definition on page 236, I am unable to find any other reference on the effects of Impact Force on the LOC. Can you find any other references to LOC, which Homer states is The Principle, The Mechanics and The Secret of G.O.L.F. ? This would be helpful in understanding LOC.

quote:This should inform you that the LOC is NOT just from Impact ot Separation.

Again, how does this inform us about LOC without further references and explanations in the book? If the LOC is NOT just from Impact to Separation, where does it start and where does it finish? Where in the book does Homer show the start and finish of the LOC?

quote:Kelley's statement as was Hogans, that it is too short of time period to try and manipulate something during impact.

But on page 12 Homer proclaims: "The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the "Line of Compression."

So how is the LOC produced and manipulated from start to finish?

quote:There are many things you can do to disturb the LOC prior to getting to the ball, all of which will have an effect upon the ball result.

Again please provide the references what actions will disturb the LOC prior to getting to the ball. We are shown the apparent effects on the ball when the LOC and CF are separated as shown in the vector pictures, but there seems to be no written reference that I can find that refers to actions prior to Impact that affect LOC. Pictures such as Homer has provided are not worth a thousand words because the vector diagrams are all screwed up.

quote:It is quite simple and there are no contradictions here.

Thanks for your reasurances, but if you could direct me to specific references in the book that will explain and simplify LOC, and eliminate the standing contradiction that if the Impact event is insignificant, why does Homer go to such great lengths to illustrate the LOC during the Impact event?

 

[corky05]

Horton, How much longer till you post your swing video? Not everybody loved David Alford, but you had to respect that the guy actually found his swing and other swings on the range. We look forward to you validating yourself , as well! As outspoken as you have been, we know you are the real deal. Can't wait to see your action, as we will all be better for it. Hurry, please! The suspense is killing us. We are ready to become better golfers. You feel you have dethroned our messiah, so, we are anxious to see how it should really be done. I personally have believed in you, since the time you made me aware that there really was'nt a computor in the golf ball. I, probably more than anybody else, can't wait to see your swing. Between your swing prowess and your audio visual acumen, you more than anybody, will be able to right my swing. I hope my buddies NJMP2, RFerro and the rest are watching. Some of us were thinking about lessons from these snake oil salesmen, but after we see your action I'm sure we'll cancel. I hope your kind enough to leave contact info, so we can schedule lessons. Please hurry with the swing video.

 

[Ringer]

Simple.. The wrists have three movements which all correspond with the three hinge types. Vertical, horizontal, and angled. Conversely the wrists rotate (via the forearm) turned/rolled, bend/arch (aka pronate/supinate), and cock/uncock. Each of these motions have a midpoint. Turned/rolled has vertical, bent/arch has flat, and cock/uncock have level. Any combination of these movements changes the LOC through the release.