4/10,000 of a second

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Maybe a few of those who are qustioning the LOC, should read the definition in the back of the book to start with.

I have read the definition of LOC namely: "The direction of the Impact Force, as related to the various centerlines, for determining Ball Behaviour."

I equate Impact Force to Clubhead Force (CF) per page 16 and the LOC as shown in pictures on pages 13, 19, 21 with all the impact vectors according to Homers analysis. Apart from the reference to LOC on page 12 and the definition on page 236, I am unable to find any other reference on the effects of Impact Force on the LOC. Can you find any other references to LOC, which Homer states is The Principle, The Mechanics and The Secret of G.O.L.F. ? This would be helpful in understanding LOC.

quote:This should inform you that the LOC is NOT just from Impact ot Separation.

Again, how does this inform us about LOC without further references and explanations in the book? If the LOC is NOT just from Impact to Separation, where does it start and where does it finish? Where in the book does Homer show the start and finish of the LOC?

quote:Kelley's statement as was Hogans, that it is too short of time period to try and manipulate something during impact.

But on page 12 Homer proclaims: "The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the "Line of Compression."

So how is the LOC produced and manipulated from start to finish?

quote:There are many things you can do to disturb the LOC prior to getting to the ball, all of which will have an effect upon the ball result.

Again please provide the references what actions will disturb the LOC prior to getting to the ball. We are shown the apparent effects on the ball when the LOC and CF are separated as shown in the vector pictures, but there seems to be no written reference that I can find that refers to actions prior to Impact that affect LOC. Pictures such as Homer has provided are not worth a thousand words because the vector diagrams are all screwed up.

quote:It is quite simple and there are no contradictions here.

Thanks for your reasurances, but if you could direct me to specific references in the book that will explain and simplify LOC, and eliminate the standing contradiction that if the Impact event is insignificant, why does Homer go to such great lengths to illustrate the LOC during the Impact event?

Please take note in the definitions. It provides a common defintion and then it even gives an example.

Anything that violates the 3 imperatives can result in the loss of sustaining the LOC. The ideal LOC will provide the maximum transfer of engery resulting is a good golf result.

Using the diagrams the way you are, I am not surprised that you are at a loss and confused. Those are to illustrate concepts. Accurate, well IMO at impact and at separation the shaft should be leaning forward, it is not. It was not intended to as I understand to be scientific accurate picture of the club hitting the ball, but a graphical renditioning to assist a reader in seeing the various forces, angles, etc at impact and at separation.

If you have in fact read TGM then you know what distrubs the ability to sustain the LOC. If not read chpt 3. Oh, if you are looking for the phrase "This is what will prevent or disturb the ability to sustain the LOC", you propably are going to be disappointed.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

Horton, How much longer till you post your swing video? Please hurry with the swing video.

Corky, I assure you that my golfswing was much superior to that of Homer Kelley and Yoda too. Hope that satisfies your angst.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Simple.. The wrists have three movements which all correspond with the three hinge types. Vertical, horizontal, and angled. Conversely the wrists rotate (via the forearm) turned/rolled, bend/arch (aka pronate/supinate), and cock/uncock. Each of these motions have a midpoint. Turned/rolled has vertical, bent/arch has flat, and cock/uncock have level. Any combination of these movements changes the LOC through the release.

Where does Homer state that in TGM, or is that only your interpretation of LOC Mechanics? In none of Homer's sketches on pages 13, 17, 19, 21, does he extend the LOC behind the clubhead. In each picture the LOC starts at the point of Impact and not in Release as you state. The LOC may be affected by the Arcs of Approach and Attack and their corresponding Angles, but still lack Homer's science on how to "sustain" the LOC during the Impact event.

Somehow I am getting the impression that none of you here can explain the LOC as described by Homer. Perhaps you should defer to Brian Manzella when he returns from FL.

 

[bsbsbs]

we've been assured, pack up your stuff and go home, parties over, nothing to see here. I know I feel better now. Is your superior swing early Moe old Moe, current Natural Golf, IMA or some hybrid that you came up with your superior intellect. And superior in your eyes or superior in the balls eyes. For those of us wanting to play better golf, surely you'll share.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Please take note in the definitions. It provides a common defintion and then it even gives an example.

Anything that violates the 3 imperatives can result in the loss of sustaining the LOC. The ideal LOC will provide the maximum transfer of engery resulting is a good golf result.

Using the diagrams the way you are, I am not surprised that you are at a loss and confused. Those are to illustrate concepts. Accurate, well IMO at impact and at separation the shaft should be leaning forward, it is not. It was not intended to as I understand to be scientific accurate picture of the club hitting the ball, but a graphical renditioning to assist a reader in seeing the various forces, angles, etc at impact and at separation.

If you have in fact read TGM then you know what distrubs the ability to sustain the LOC. If not read chpt 3. Oh, if you are looking for the phrase "This is what will prevent or disturb the ability to sustain the LOC", you propably are going to be disappointed.

Thanks for your response to my confusion. However your comments that Homer only used the LOC for illustrative purposes while proclaiming on page 12 that the LOC was the Principle, the Mechanics and the Secret of Golf, leaves me rather concerned about TGM. Nevertheless, I can will take your advice and read Chapter 3 and practice more.

Somehow I suspect that Homer wrote TGM to himself and left everybody else to ponder his convoluted thought processes. Perhaps TGM is better understood through verbal explanation, because the science and grammar Homer uses are, to say the least, atrocious. Bless you for your truthful explanation.

 

[corky05]

It's interesting that you would say, "WAS"?

Your assurances and a cup of coffee! Your a phoney! Crawl out of your cubicle, get some sun and pick up a golf club. I don't want assurances, I want to see the goods. Post that swing! Put up or shut up! Somebody posted Yoda's swing at SA Forum and everybody is raving about it! You and Mandrin have decided to come over here and stir the pot, So, Post your swings. Action speaks louder than words! You and Mandy came over here with one intention and all your hate has backfired. You have enticed others to take a look over here. And they like what they see. You should be proud you and Mandy have been some of the best exposure TGM could ask for! AI's around the country should pay you a royalty. Show us the goods, or crawl back on your belly from where you came!

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by corky05

Horton, How much longer till you post your swing video? Please hurry with the swing video.

Corky, I assure you that my golfswing was much superior to that of Homer Kelley and Yoda too. Hope that satisfies your angst.

 

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Please take note in the definitions. It provides a common defintion and then it even gives an example.

Anything that violates the 3 imperatives can result in the loss of sustaining the LOC. The ideal LOC will provide the maximum transfer of engery resulting is a good golf result.

Using the diagrams the way you are, I am not surprised that you are at a loss and confused. Those are to illustrate concepts. Accurate, well IMO at impact and at separation the shaft should be leaning forward, it is not. It was not intended to as I understand to be scientific accurate picture of the club hitting the ball, but a graphical renditioning to assist a reader in seeing the various forces, angles, etc at impact and at separation.

If you have in fact read TGM then you know what distrubs the ability to sustain the LOC. If not read chpt 3. Oh, if you are looking for the phrase "This is what will prevent or disturb the ability to sustain the LOC", you propably are going to be disappointed.

Thanks for your response to my confusion. However your comments that Homer only used the LOC for illustrative purposes while proclaiming on page 12 that the LOC was the Principle, the Mechanics and the Secret of Golf, leaves me rather concerned about TGM. Nevertheless, I can will take your advice and read Chapter 3 and practice more.

Somehow I suspect that Homer wrote TGM to himself and left everybody else to ponder his convoluted thought processes. Perhaps TGM is better understood through verbal explanation, because the science and grammar Homer uses are, to say the least, atrocious. Bless you for your truthful explanation.

I did not say that the LOC was for illustration purposes only. I said the diagrams were for illustration. LOC is real and it starts before the ball and goes past the ball. You are missing the point.

An example of disturbing the LOC would be to lose the flat left wrist before impact, have a broke plane line will also effect the LOC. Hitting the Big ball before the little white ball is a biggie...

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

I did not say that the LOC was for illustration purposes only. I said the diagrams were for illustration. LOC is real and it starts before the ball and goes past the ball. You are missing the point.

An example of disturbing the LOC would be to lose the flat left wrist before impact, have a broke plane line will also effect the LOC. Hitting the Big ball before the little white ball is a biggie...

Okay, so you say that the LOC starts before the ball and goes past the ball. Do you know where it starts and finishes?

I remind you that Homer classified the LOC as a vector symbol (2-C-1) which is always a straight line. If the LOC is a straight line before Impact starting before the ball and after the ball how do you know where it is located, if it is defined by the direction of the Impact Force (page 236)?

Perhaps the LOC is created only after the Impact Force is applied to the ball as shown in all of Homer's sketches and then ends at Separation. Ever think of that ??

 

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

I did not say that the LOC was for illustration purposes only. I said the diagrams were for illustration. LOC is real and it starts before the ball and goes past the ball. You are missing the point.

An example of disturbing the LOC would be to lose the flat left wrist before impact, have a broke plane line will also effect the LOC. Hitting the Big ball before the little white ball is a biggie...

Okay, so you say that the LOC starts before the ball and goes past the ball. Do you know where it starts and finishes?

I remind you that Homer classified the LOC as a vector symbol (2-C-1) which is always a straight line. If the LOC is a straight line before Impact starting before the ball and after the ball how do you know where it is located, if it is defined by the direction of the Impact Force (page 236)?

Perhaps the LOC is created only after the Impact Force is applied to the ball as shown in all of Homer's sketches and then ends at Separation. Ever think of that ??

At Impact Fix.....

Rather than continue this discussion I offer you a simple concept to relate too. Take a hammer the force at contact can be shown with one vector ( a straight line), 1 milsec after contact that same force if mapped with a vector will be a straight line, but not the same as the one at contact. Maintain the force in an inline direction when contact is not one moment in time will generate a number of vectors if the forces is being monitored. Much is the golf swing motion. The LOC ideally is downward, outward and forward, on plane with Impact Fix alignments.

Now that may sound goofy and mabye it is too you. To me it is simple, Alignment, onplane, maintain them and get out of the way so you don't manipulate them. Manipulation is a complication, one which can occur in a golf swing, even successful golf swings, but for manipulation, there resided the opportunity for an error.

I have no idea what you point is, but it is simple to understand if you will just accept it for what it is and not try to become paralyzed with analyze.

Obviously I can not give you the answer you want and your posts seem to want to attack TGM. I have no issue with anyone wanting to learn, understand, but I have time for those who think they have the answers and like to play games. If this is not your characterization, I apologize, but you posts seem to support my observation.

Have a good day...

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

At Impact Fix.....

The LOC ideally is downward, outward and forward, on plane with Impact Fix alignments.

Does Impact Fix occur before Impact or does it occur at the Impact Point between the clubface and ball?

Is the Impact Fix maintained during the Impact Interval of 0.4 ms?

If you can answer these questions I think we can make some progress about the existence of the LOC. Think about it.

Good night ....[|)]

 

[matt]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

At Impact Fix.....

The LOC ideally is downward, outward and forward, on plane with Impact Fix alignments.

Does Impact Fix occur before Impact or does it occur at the Impact Point between the clubface and ball?

Is the Impact Fix maintained during the Impact Interval of 0.4 ms?

If you can answer these questions I think we can make some progress about the existence of the LOC. Think about it.

Good night ....[|)]

Do you understand Impact Fix? Judging from those questions, it doesn't sound like it.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by matt

Do you understand Impact Fix? Judging from those questions, it doesn't sound like it.

7-8 THE FIX

10-8 THE FIX

10-9-B IMPACT

If you can provide me with any other references, I would be grateful.

My understanding of Martee's response -- "At Impact Fix ...... " and his hammer example was his response to defining LOC.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Simple.. The wrists have three movements which all correspond with the three hinge types. Vertical, horizontal, and angled. Conversely the wrists rotate (via the forearm) turned/rolled, bend/arch (aka pronate/supinate), and cock/uncock. Each of these motions have a midpoint. Turned/rolled has vertical, bent/arch has flat, and cock/uncock have level. Any combination of these movements changes the LOC through the release.

Where does Homer state that in TGM, or is that only your interpretation of LOC Mechanics? In none of Homer's sketches on pages 13, 17, 19, 21, does he extend the LOC behind the clubhead. In each picture the LOC starts at the point of Impact and not in Release as you state. The LOC may be affected by the Arcs of Approach and Attack and their corresponding Angles, but still lack Homer's science on how to "sustain" the LOC during the Impact event.

Somehow I am getting the impression that none of you here can explain the LOC as described by Homer. Perhaps you should defer to Brian Manzella when he returns from FL.

Do not purposely arrange your comments to confuse those who are reading. At no time was it ever the intention to say the LOC begins before the ball. You may contain those arguments with Martee as you are not having them with me. The Line of Compression exists from impact, down and out through the full release of the club to both arms straight which is the lowest, and furthest point away from the feet. The LOC is the point which the club makes contact with the ball at impact, through to the point of seperation. The LOC is a straight line (linear) between those two points which one hopes to permit no leakage of compression which would reduce the amount of energy the ball will inherit from the club.

Because it is human intuition to trust force linearally instead of the rotational adding such a line to our intention helps to create the desired LINEAR reaction of the ball. Notice that the LOC is at an angle to the right of the ball flight, with a closed clubface to that line. This changes the attitude which someone tries to approach the ball as opposed to the common belief that you must go "Straight through" during impact. The LOC is NOT an actual force vector, but rather an instrumental line when trying to produce the motion.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Please take note in the definitions. It provides a common defintion and then it even gives an example.

Anything that violates the 3 imperatives can result in the loss of sustaining the LOC. The ideal LOC will provide the maximum transfer of engery resulting is a good golf result.

Using the diagrams the way you are, I am not surprised that you are at a loss and confused. Those are to illustrate concepts. Accurate, well IMO at impact and at separation the shaft should be leaning forward, it is not. It was not intended to as I understand to be scientific accurate picture of the club hitting the ball, but a graphical renditioning to assist a reader in seeing the various forces, angles, etc at impact and at separation.

If you have in fact read TGM then you know what distrubs the ability to sustain the LOC. If not read chpt 3. Oh, if you are looking for the phrase "This is what will prevent or disturb the ability to sustain the LOC", you propably are going to be disappointed.

Thanks for your response to my confusion. However your comments that Homer only used the LOC for illustrative purposes while proclaiming on page 12 that the LOC was the Principle, the Mechanics and the Secret of Golf, leaves me rather concerned about TGM. Nevertheless, I can will take your advice and read Chapter 3 and practice more.

Somehow I suspect that Homer wrote TGM to himself and left everybody else to ponder his convoluted thought processes. Perhaps TGM is better understood through verbal explanation, because the science and grammar Homer uses are, to say the least, atrocious. Bless you for your truthful explanation.

Now you are beginning to stray from the real argument. The mind does not always work in scientific principles. If it did, there never would have been a belief that the sun orbited the earth, or that the earth was flat. It is the interpretation of what YOU THINK YOU MUST DO which we act upon. That makes the LOC a very important concept, because it deals with what the mind attempts during the swing.

 

[matt]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by matt

Do you understand Impact Fix? Judging from those questions, it doesn't sound like it.

7-8 THE FIX

10-8 THE FIX

10-9-B IMPACT

If you can provide me with any other references, I would be grateful.

My understanding of Martee's response -- "At Impact Fix ...... " and his hammer example was his response to defining LOC.

Then how can you ask if "Impact Fix is maintained during the Impact Interval..."? Impact Fix is a pre-stroke checkpoint - you go to it and then go back to Adjusted Address with mid-body hands. How can it be maintained?

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by horton

quote:Originally posted by Martee

At Impact Fix.....

The LOC ideally is downward, outward and forward, on plane with Impact Fix alignments.

Does Impact Fix occur before Impact or does it occur at the Impact Point between the clubface and ball?

Is the Impact Fix maintained during the Impact Interval of 0.4 ms?

If you can answer these questions I think we can make some progress about the existence of the LOC. Think about it.

Good night ....[|)]

And now, everyone in this forum who has read the book knows that you have probably never even cracked the cover of it. You would be wise to know your foe before trying to engage them. From this point on you will only look a fool to those who have actually tried to understand it.

And let me make one thing absolutely clear so that you do not get this wrong. I don't teach TGM. I have no affiliation with it. In fact I have butt heads with the TGM folks numerous times. One exchange between corky and I and you'll quite clearly see I am the last person you would expect to argue in it's favor... But you are dealing with people who know what they're talking about, and we don't need Brian or Lynn to say a word.

What you need to do is read the book instead of taking out excerpts you probably got of the website and try to argue us with them.

 

[horton]

Ringer --- Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement: "Any combination of these movements changes the LOC through the release." to mean that the LOC was generated during Release and before Impact.

Thank you for clarifying your interpretation of LOC, as opposed to Martee's still unclear position. Perhaps he may now concur with your explanation.

Homer defines LOC as the direction of the Impact Force (a vector), as related to the various centerlines for determining Ball Behaviour. (page 236) The only references to LOC are in the various sketches in Chapter 2, showing a multitude of incorrect force vector diagrams between the club and ball, together with the LOC.

This leads me to conclude that Homer has not made his scientific case for The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the "Line of Compression". You cannot build a scientific case for LOC if the vector diagrams are incorrect. The entire basis of G.O.L.F. is contingent on how the LOC and Impact Forces are developed by the TGM golfswing. If the force vectors are wrong, the concept of LOC is flawed.

I challenge TGM to test Homer's vector diagrams with any reputable Professor of Engineering Statics and Dynamics to verify what I am stating as the facts. All those arrows Homer has sketched are wrong as wrong can be. Sorry but that's scientific reality. Not that it may matter to the TGM methodology of teaching the golfswing ...

 

[horton]

Matt / Ringer -- I was only responding to Martee's reference to Impact Fix in relation to his hammer analogy for Impact. If I was mislead to believe that Impact Fix had anything to do with Impact, then I stand corrected. I did read the sections I quoted to him, and it seemed like these was some connection between Impact and Impact Fix ... as Martee lead me to believe. I hope Martee was not setting me up. I did not introduce Impact Fix into the discussion.

Perhaps you can respond to Martee in his interpretation of LOC and the Impact event since he brought up Impact Fix.

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by horton

Matt / Ringer -- I was only responding to Martee's reference to Impact Fix in relation to his hammer analogy for Impact. If I was mislead to believe that Impact Fix had anything to do with Impact, then I stand corrected. I did read the sections I quoted to him, and it seemed like these was some connection between Impact and Impact Fix ... as Martee lead me to believe. I hope Martee was not setting me up. I did not introduce Impact Fix into the discussion.

Perhaps you can respond to Martee in his interpretation of LOC and the Impact event since he brought up Impact Fix.

You weren't set up. It's all in the book. See 7-8 under Machine PREPARATION. Fix is taken prior to the backstroke. Some people play from fix like address.

So your swing WAS better than Yoda's? What happened?

Could you comment on the imperative of a FLAT LEFT WRIST? Are you saying that this isn't necessary?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

In my opening post I simply reproduced Homer’s own words and some lines out of his book.

I pointed out a contradiction made by Homer for all to see.

Several posts down the line not even the slightest reference to the contradiction.

Do I take it therefore that it is not important that Homer seems to contradict himself?

mandrin

So if by some magic pixie dust every TGM kool aid drinker were to say Mr. Kelley's science was flawed, what next? What about Ledbetter and Harmon? They also talk about science. If you "expose" their science as shotty, are all of the top players going to stop taking lessons from them?

If Mr. Kelley's work is so riddled with scientific errors that we are not to use it, then WHO has it right or close to right from your perspective?