4/10,000 of a second
- Thread starter mandrin
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I asked Martee where the LOC started and he responded "At Impact Fix .." Ask him what he meant by that comment.
Nothing happened .... and I don't play GloBall golf at night.
Everybody with a proper golfswing have a flat left wrist through Impact, because of the application of centripetal force, accompanied with the necessary clearing of the hips and adequate shoulder rotation. The young Paul Azinger had to first Release his body rotation to achieve a flat left wrist at Impact to compensate for his extremely strong left hand gripping. Now Azinger has weakened his grip because his aging body cannot twist as far. It's probable that he has learned something valuable from TGM.
quote:Originally posted by horton
I asked Martee where the LOC started and he responded "At Impact Fix .." Ask him what he meant by that comment.
Nothing happened .... and I don't play GloBall golf at night.
Everybody with a proper golfswing have a flat left wrist through Impact, because of the application of centripetal force, accompanied with the necessary clearing of the hips and adequate shoulder rotation. The young Paul Azinger had to first Release his body rotation to achieve a flat left wrist at Impact to compensate for his extremely strong left hand gripping. Now Azinger has weakened his grip because his aging body cannot twist as far. It's probable that he has learned something valuable from TGM.
Thanks for your reply.
So you are saying that the flat left wrist is a result of the correct movement of the hips and centripetal force. How should one properly create centripital force and with what body parts? And how should the hips and shoulders be cleared to produce the the flat left wrist?
Also are you familiar with Mr. Kelley's thoughts on keeping the right wrist in a LEVEL BENT condition? I would also be interested in your thoughts on that, as well.
Regards,
R
run,
I thought you were being facetious with the question, which is why I didn't answer. The model with which the "scientists" are working is the 2-D model posted in the original "Debunking Homer" thread. It's a sophomoric, oversimplistic model, which has only two of the four Power Accumulators and a stationary center.
But why not a realistic 3-D model which includes Power Accumulator #3 and a moving Swing Center? Because these "scientists" ARE INCAPABLE of deriving the equations!
I thought you were being facetious with the question, which is why I didn't answer. The model with which the "scientists" are working is the 2-D model posted in the original "Debunking Homer" thread. It's a sophomoric, oversimplistic model, which has only two of the four Power Accumulators and a stationary center.
But why not a realistic 3-D model which includes Power Accumulator #3 and a moving Swing Center? Because these "scientists" ARE INCAPABLE of deriving the equations!
If you could stay on topic rather than threadjacking the topic of LOC and the 0.4 ms Impact Event as proposed by Homer, this forum could gain some legitimacy.
Hopefully Brian Manzella will intercede soon to clear up the sniping and misundertandings that seem to have taken over this topic.
Loggin out .... horton ... [V]
Hopefully Brian Manzella will intercede soon to clear up the sniping and misundertandings that seem to have taken over this topic.
Loggin out .... horton ... [V]
Why are you so bent on the video clip?
What do I know? More then some, less then others. If you want to learn TGM, lets go to a range and I'll teach you everything I learned. If you want to babble on about science, then no I'm not interested in trying to defend something - chapter two which works with any swing- to someone that won't listen to begin with.
TGM is simply to learn and just like studying anything - an instructor really helps and I had the best AI out there.
So. What do you need to know, hinge action? Right forearm take up? The wedges? Swivel? Need to train the pivot? Snap release, non-automatic sweep? Do you want to Hit or Swing?
I'm more then happy to show you.
What do I know? More then some, less then others. If you want to learn TGM, lets go to a range and I'll teach you everything I learned. If you want to babble on about science, then no I'm not interested in trying to defend something - chapter two which works with any swing- to someone that won't listen to begin with.
TGM is simply to learn and just like studying anything - an instructor really helps and I had the best AI out there.
So. What do you need to know, hinge action? Right forearm take up? The wedges? Swivel? Need to train the pivot? Snap release, non-automatic sweep? Do you want to Hit or Swing?
I'm more then happy to show you.
Oh no. I thought these guys from the SA forum were of the Natural Golf variety. I assumed they were following that Jack Kuyendall or whatever his name is. TGM can handle Moe Norman's swing, Greg Norman's swing, and Moe Larry & Curly's swings too!
I agree that we have to be talking inclined plane in the equations though. Our discussion was about golf not croquet. I'm in no position to debate the merits of TGM and Newtonian physics. I do know one thing though, I'm a better ballstriker due to TGM.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
My other thread should END this silly debate.
According to the scientific study done by:
Thomas, F.W., (1987) Groove Study - Phase II. USGA Technical Report, Far Hills, NJ.
It was determined that:
1) - The contact time during the Impact, decreases with increasing velocity.
This means the higher your clubhead speed, the shorter is the time the ball stays on the clubface. This is tested scientific fact by the USGA. So your suggestion that sustaining the LOC during the Impact Event will increase distance at any velocity is WRONG.
2) - The compression phase of the Impact is less than one-half of the contact time
This means that the ball compresses for less than half the 0.4 ms contact time. So ball compression occurs in the first 0.2 ms of contact and then stops !! So now we only have 0.2 ms, not the 0.4 ms to compress the golf ball !!!
3) - The ball's diameter at the end of Impact has returned to more than 98% of it's original size.
This means that during the remaining 0.2 ms of contact, the ball is decompressing rapidly back to 98% roundness before it separates from the clubface. Interesting ... eh?
Knowing these unrefutable scientific facts determined by the USGA, it would seem that Homer's scientific fantasies about LOC and vectors, are somewhat blown out of the water or sand.
So when Homer says: "The Secret of Golf is sustaining the LOC", he was not only unaware of where the LOC vector was located, he was also unaware of the most recent science (1987) since he departed us in 1983. However the proponents of TGM do not seem to avail themselves of the latest scientific knowledge to update and revise TGM to make it scientifically current .... and correct.
I'm sure all this information will not adversely affect your teaching of TGM, but if I were you I would refrain from telling anybody that the longer you can sustain the LOC, the farther you will hit the ball ... because that ain't true ... even though it may feel that way it's not reality.
Hope that helps .... regards ....
Given this study, we are to assume that Mr. Kelley's science is incorrect. OK let's run with that.
The 6th edition of TGM was published prior to the study you site, which you were respectful of Mr. Kelley to point out. Who knows if he would have changed his description of impact physics. I think he would have definitely given consideration to the study as an original and innovative thinker.
Mr. Kelley based on this study had the wrong impact physics assumptions. But from his "shat in the bed on science" (don't know if that is scientific terminology, but your descriptive phrase) assumptions, he derived the imperatives of 1. FLAT LEFT WRIST 2. A CLUBHEAD LAG PRESSURE POINT 3. A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
So are we to now assume that the THREE BASIC IMPERATIVES are incorrect? I would be interested in your analysis of all three Imperatives individually if you could be so kind.
As interesting would be for you to opine on the importance of the LEVEL BENT right wrist, MAGIC of the RIGHT FOREARM and the FLYING WEDGES.
Mandrin has professed to expose Mr. Kelley's equally "shat in the bed on science" assumptions in the POWER ACCUMULATORS. This was done in a 2-D model. MizunoJoe repeatedly requested an explanation in 3-D as well as an explanation of loading the shaft. We never got the answer. MizunoJoe was accused of being incapable of understanding replies and illiterate . . . charming. He was not belligerent in his responses, just persistent in asking his questions. I as well would be interested in your analysis on these concepts.
But this may be getting the cart before the horse. Why don't we start with the 3 imperatives since they were a direct result of "shat in the bed" science.
Thank you for your contribution and I look forward to your analysis.
Regards,
R
Thomas, F.W., (1987) Groove Study - Phase II. USGA Technical Report, Far Hills, NJ.
It was determined that:
1) - The contact time during the Impact, decreases with increasing velocity.
This means the higher your clubhead speed, the shorter is the time the ball stays on the clubface. This is tested scientific fact by the USGA. So your suggestion that sustaining the LOC during the Impact Event will increase distance at any velocity is WRONG.
2) - The compression phase of the Impact is less than one-half of the contact time
This means that the ball compresses for less than half the 0.4 ms contact time. So ball compression occurs in the first 0.2 ms of contact and then stops !! So now we only have 0.2 ms, not the 0.4 ms to compress the golf ball !!!
3) - The ball's diameter at the end of Impact has returned to more than 98% of it's original size.
This means that during the remaining 0.2 ms of contact, the ball is decompressing rapidly back to 98% roundness before it separates from the clubface. Interesting ... eh?
Knowing these unrefutable scientific facts determined by the USGA, it would seem that Homer's scientific fantasies about LOC and vectors, are somewhat blown out of the water or sand.
So when Homer says: "The Secret of Golf is sustaining the LOC", he was not only unaware of where the LOC vector was located, he was also unaware of the most recent science (1987) since he departed us in 1983. However the proponents of TGM do not seem to avail themselves of the latest scientific knowledge to update and revise TGM to make it scientifically current .... and correct.
I'm sure all this information will not adversely affect your teaching of TGM, but if I were you I would refrain from telling anybody that the longer you can sustain the LOC, the farther you will hit the ball ... because that ain't true ... even though it may feel that way it's not reality.
Hope that helps .... regards ....
Given this study, we are to assume that Mr. Kelley's science is incorrect. OK let's run with that.
The 6th edition of TGM was published prior to the study you site, which you were respectful of Mr. Kelley to point out. Who knows if he would have changed his description of impact physics. I think he would have definitely given consideration to the study as an original and innovative thinker.
Mr. Kelley based on this study had the wrong impact physics assumptions. But from his "shat in the bed on science" (don't know if that is scientific terminology, but your descriptive phrase) assumptions, he derived the imperatives of 1. FLAT LEFT WRIST 2. A CLUBHEAD LAG PRESSURE POINT 3. A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
So are we to now assume that the THREE BASIC IMPERATIVES are incorrect? I would be interested in your analysis of all three Imperatives individually if you could be so kind.
As interesting would be for you to opine on the importance of the LEVEL BENT right wrist, MAGIC of the RIGHT FOREARM and the FLYING WEDGES.
Mandrin has professed to expose Mr. Kelley's equally "shat in the bed on science" assumptions in the POWER ACCUMULATORS. This was done in a 2-D model. MizunoJoe repeatedly requested an explanation in 3-D as well as an explanation of loading the shaft. We never got the answer. MizunoJoe was accused of being incapable of understanding replies and illiterate . . . charming. He was not belligerent in his responses, just persistent in asking his questions. I as well would be interested in your analysis on these concepts.
But this may be getting the cart before the horse. Why don't we start with the 3 imperatives since they were a direct result of "shat in the bed" science.
Thank you for your contribution and I look forward to your analysis.
Regards,
R
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Homer drew the diagrams to make the points easier to 'see' not to be dead-on accurate.
He could have though.....easily.
Horton, know anything about Aero-Planes?
He could have though.....easily.
Horton, know anything about Aero-Planes?
1. FLAT LEFT WRIST -- What this means anatomically is that the left wrist extends and takes on a straightened position due to the application of centripetal force through the left arm rotating around the left shoulder. The stronger the left hand postion, the greater the body release must be to square the clubface to the ball. Also anatomical differences will affect how "straight" the left wrist can be. Another factor is the club used and the eccentricity of the clubhead in relation to the shaft axis. Drivers have less eccentricity while wedges have more eccentricity. This will affect how 'straight' the left wrist position will assume under dynamic conditions. I think all we can hope for is an approximately flat wrist to happen, because you can't force your left wrist to flatten during the golfswing Release. It must happen naturally provided the hands and the remainder of the body is propely aligned into Impact.
2. CLUBHEAD LAG PP #3 --- Is actually illusory during the 0.4 ms Impact event because a published study has shown that the grip pressure of the right hand releases during Impact. That means PP #3 vanishes through Impact and reestablishes after Impact as a reaction to the decelerating shaft. This gives the sensation that PP #3 is constant through Impact, but that is not correct because the neuromuscular system cannot sense the change in the 0.4ms, so the brain just assumes that PP #3 is operating through Impact. Sorry folks, but your PP #3 "feel" is not "real" and does not "sustain the LOC' through Impact. However PP #3 is very significant from the Top and through Release. but NOT through Impact according to proven science.
3. STRAIGHT PLANE LINE -- a la Hogan is a fine concept for diagnosing the golfswing, but it is just a static construct that does not adequately describe what is happening to the arms, hands and club during the swing. Scientific studies of the golfswing would only analyze the "paths" as shown in SPS and SLAP. Attempting to create a swing along a straight line may help control the arms and hands, but real-life images of the arms and hands show that they swing on a curvilinear path. Attempting to mentally construct a swing plane and a line on that plane is not compatible with the articulations of the human body.
I'm going to pass on commenting on the concepts of level bent right wrist, the magic of the right forearm and the flying wedges, because we may run out of bandwidth. But whatever works for you ....
As for mandrins 2D versus 3D model for the power accumulators, that is not necessary to prove his point because the concept of "power accumulation" at various body angles is just Homer's way of using his aircraft hydraulic thinking applied to the golfswing. mandarin may only be a science teacher and not an engineer who would have recognized Homer's mechanical mind set.
As for shaft loading, I think you should refer to the www.truetemper.com site and their Shaft Lab testing for shaft loading.
Hope that helps .... regards ...
Thank you for your reply. I think these are some of the areas that we (all of us) could have a constructive discussion.
FLAT LEFT WRIST
I think that your position here is not too different from Mr. Kelley. I saw a video on the SA site which was very good showing the left wrist uncocking while remaining flat. This is the exact movement that Mr. Kelley advised. "What this means anatomically is that the left wrist extends and takes on a straightened position due to the application of centripetal force through the left arm rotating around the left shoulder." This is pretty much in line with Mr. Kelley on swinging. He also distinguished hitting whereby muscle power particularly the right forearm driving uncocks the left wrist.
Could you expand on this? "I think all we can hope for is an approximately flat wrist to happen, because you can't force your left wrist to flatten during the golfswing Release. It must happen naturally provided the hands and the remainder of the body is propely aligned into Impact." Mr. Kelley's imperative was that the left wrist controlled the alignment of the clubface. As I'm sure you are aware he advanced the theory of educated hands and a hands controlled pivot. Are you familiar with exactly how Mr. Kelley advised educating the hands? This is of extreme importance in a TGM context anyway.
Mr. Kelley thought that through educating the hands the player could do more than just "hope" that the left wrist could be flat. Does science take issue with that?
Based on the science of the clubhead "free wheeling" can the golfer control the clubface? If so through what means?
I would like to take up the other two imperatives individually as well if that's ok? Thanks in advance for your replies.
Regards,
R
Please refer to the new topic by wallywonga - Freewheeling through Impact. I have provided a scientific study reference that will clarify your question on left hand/wrist manipulation through Impact. The study indicates that better players use centrifugal force and not any hand manipulation to square the clubface through Impact. No educated hands!?
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