Aiming left/swinging left...MANZELLA STRIKES YET AGAIN!

[JeffM]

I have noted that Brian recommends swinging left when the ball is on the ground - in order to hit the ball straight.

Is there a thread that discusses this recommendation in great detail?

In particular, I would like to know whether the recommendation is to aim left and/or swing left?

I would also like to know what one is aiming - the club and/or a specific body part?

Finally, I would like to read an "explanation" that explains the "specific" underlying geometry and physics that form the foundation for this recommendation.

Thanks,

Jeff.

 

[detonum]

When the clubhead is moving down on a plane that is angled (meaning not vertical nor horizontal), it is also moving out. Because we want to strike down on the golf ball that is on the ground, we need to counter that out that comes with the down, so that we wont hit it to the right, or hook it. So the plane line must must point to the left of the target to hit a straight shot.

You don't necessarily have to align your body to the left, while that makes it easier, you only need to point the plane line left.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

assuming a neutral clubhead path; the more down you hit it the more in/out the impact. To counteract the more "down" you have to swing more left.

 

[aaron_lohan]

assuming a neutral clubhead path; the more down you hit it the more in/out the impact. To counteract the more "down" you have to swing more left.

still don't understand this, the more out to in the swing path the more you hit down, the more in to out the swing the shallower the path and the less down you hit right? when i was swinging in to out i hardly hit down at all and never took a divot- which would be indicative of a downward strike?

 

[detonum]

still don't understand this, the more out to in the swing path the more you hit down, the more in to out the swing the shallower the path and the less down you hit right? when i was swinging in to out i hardly hit down at all and never took a divot- which would be indicative of a downward strike?

When you swing more in to out, ball is usually struck closer to low point, and if you swing too much right, after low point, which is propably your case. So if you swing more right from your normal stance, you must also move the ball back in your stance to hit down the same amount.

Even though you swing left and hit down, the clubhead path at impact is still parallel to the target line!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The more downard the angle of attack, the more in/out the impact will be because you are striking it further before low point (why divots are usually deeper and longer). This means that clubhead was going more in/out.

So let's say your stock 9 iron is a shallow divot and aim at the target and you "bang down on it more" the ball will start more to the right because of it. Thus you have to aim and swing more left to counteract the more in/out impact so it goes at the target and not right of it.

 

[JeffM]

When the clubhead is moving down on a plane that is angled (meaning not vertical nor horizontal), it is also moving out. Because we want to strike down on the golf ball that is on the ground, we need to counter that out that comes with the down, so that we wont hit it to the right, or hook it. So the plane line must must point to the left of the target to hit a straight shot.

You don't necessarily have to align your body to the left, while that makes it easier, you only need to point the plane line left.

Thanks for the reply.

I cannot understand your reasoning.

I can readily understand, and accept the fact, that the clubhead is moving down-and-out prior to low point. However, that doesn't mean that the clubface is also pointing down-and-out - because the clubface is actually pointing left (relative to the clubhead) due to the hook-faced alignment of the clubface, which is inbuilt into the club by the club manufacturer. See the following photo.

According to my experience, and understanding, the clubhead must be oriented slightly outwards (right of the target) in order to get the clubface (represented by the lie angle tool in the photo) to face straight towards the target.

Jeff.

 

[pieman]

this is still a somewhat confusing topic and i have problem with what is to be aimed where. i tend to hook the ball and the ball goes left. i know it's because my clubhead is prob. closed or is closing through impact. so when you say to swing/aim left, how will this keep me from it going more left? i realize that the arms will swing left anyway. although you say to swing left, should the clubface still be aimed at, or slightly right of the intended target to hit a straight(er) ball? thanks for some clarification

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here we go again...

I have noted that Brian recommends swinging left when the ball is on the ground - in order to hit the ball straight.

There is this thing called physics....and I "recommend" what science says.

I don't recommend something because someone says they are being "Scientific." I find two or three PHDs and some accurate measurements, and go from there.

Is there a thread that discusses this recommendation in great detail?

You will find NO BETTER short simple "explanation" than "detonum's" above.

But I'll do my best in this thread to smarten you and everyone else up.

As a side note, I am going to give a seminar on this information, on June 1, 2009, for the Tri-State PGA Section.

In particular, I would like to know whether the recommendation is to aim left and/or swing left?

You are going to have to lose the recommendation stuff as per above.

Anyhoo, you can aim anyplace you'd like.

But you have to SWING left of the target. WAY LEFT.

I would also like to know what one is aiming - the club and/or a specific body part?

All the body part alignments, in three dimensions, matter.

But at the end of the day....only the TOP and BOTTOM of the D-Plane matter to the ball.

Finally, I would like to read an "explanation" that explains the "specific" underlying geometry and physics that form the foundation for this recommendation.

Let's start with some terms:

In "dark blue," I will actually do some recommending—the terms I'd suggest folks who teach use for ease of use and learning. The "burnt orange" color is fro the terms TrackMan uses, and the dark green the Golfing Machine usage.

Swing Line

Horizontal Swing Plane - Plane Line in "Golfing Machine" terms, the base line of a plane.
​

In general, this is the "direction" of your swing.
​

Plane Angle

Vertical Swing Plane - Plane Angle Basic in "Golfing Machine" terms, the pitch of the roof—so to speak.
​

Clubhead Path

Club Path - The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.

Homer Kelley either mistakenly believed Clubhead Path not to influence ball flight. He believed that the Plane Line to be responsible for that half of the ball-flight equation.

Because the arc that the clubhead travels on is so big—relative to the 3/4th of an inch to 1/2 inch that the clubhead is on the ball—this path is actually nearly a dead straight line.
​

Attack Angle

The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the sky...on the Vertcial Axis.
​

True Path

A brilliant Manzella-ism that is the actual path of the clubhead in 3D space. Think of it as a combination of Club(head) Path and Attack Angle.
​

Face Angle

Where the clubface is "pointing" in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.
​

True Clubface

A another brilliant Manzella-ism that is where the clubface is actually pointing in 3D space. Think magnetic lie angle tool. Face Angle + Dynamic Loft + Delivered Lie Angle.
​

Dynamic Loft

The amount of "delivered" loft at impact. You can have a 60° wedge, but if you "de-lofted" it 10°, you had 50° of Dynamic Loft.
​

Spin Loft

Delivered Loft minus Attack Angle. A 60° wedge, de-lofted to 50° of "Delivered Loft" hit 6° on the way down, would have 56° of "Spin Loft."
​

D-Plane

A plane angle with three points, the ball, where the TRUE club face is pointing, and where the TRUE path is pointing. Most of the time, the TRUE PATh is on the bottom. The ball will start ~70-85% of the way to the TRUE CLUBFACE, and then curve—UP THE PLANE, toward the TRUE CLUBFACE, until gravity and (or) wind take it out of its journey.
​

Since the clubhead is striking the ball on the way down with an iron—approximately 6° with a 60° wedge, 5° with a pitching wedge, about 3° with a long iron—the clubhead is STILL TRAVELING downward, outward, and forward on the face of the plane (Vertical Swing Plane).

So, wherever that "Plane" is pointing (Horizontal Swing Plane), the TRUE PATH of that clubhead will be down and out to that line.

With a Driver—which you do not want to hit on the way down, but you can—when it is swung with a 45° Vertical Swing Plane (plane angle), the clubhead is traveling 1° out for every one degree down.

With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.56° out for every one degree down.


So....


Here is an example straight ball:
(with corrected math)

An 8-iron from 150 yards....

Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°

And since 1° at 100 yards is about ~1.75 yards....

And you hit your 8-iron 150 yards....

You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target!

That will give you the bottom of the D-Plane on the target line, and you now have to have the CLUBFACE square to the target, or in this case 2.67° open to the "Plane Line."

Pretty cool, eh?

And by the way, the "HOOKFACE" is simply the sweetspot being behind the center line.

All the above COULDN'T CARE LESS about it.



0.222222 x how many degrees less than 90°

 

[puttmaster]

So, in Brian's example above, if I were the golfer in that scenario...

I would aim 7 yards left of the target BUT I would STILL swing OUT 2.67 degrees TOWARD that target, correct?

If that is correct, then I'm still confused on how I can swing OUT (which to me means to the right) 2.67 degrees and somehow also swing left ... or WAY left.

I know that I'm missing the obvious here, so someone please connect the dots for me.

thanks,
pm

 

[jguidroz]

If that is correct, then I'm still confused on how I can swing OUT (which to me means to the right) 2.67 degrees and somehow also swing left ... or WAY left.

Since you are aiming left, when you hit the ball on the way down and on the way out, it will be right at the target.

 

[Ryan Smither]

"You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target!"

Puttmaster: the ball doesn't care where you aim ... technically speaking, you need to "SWING and/or AIM left" ... the swinging left part is essential ... the aiming left part is helpful (b/c it might help you swing left better) but not necessary.

 

[JeffM]

Appreciate the attempt at an explanation

Brian,

I, and I suspect many forum members, appreciate the fact that you made such a concerted effort to explain why-: "You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target" when hitting an 8-iron 150 yards to get the ball to go straight.

However, I cannot understand what you mean when you state that a golfer has to swing 2.67 degrees left of the target. What is being swung left of the target?

From my perspective, a golfer swings the clubshaft and I believe that the clubshaft hosel should generate an in-to-square-to-in path through the impact zone. Attached to the clubshaft hosel is a clubhead and the clubhead will swivel into impact during the release swivel phase of the downswing. If the downswing release swivel release phase is perfected (perfect release of PA#3) then the clubhead will become square at impact (neither over-rolled or under-rolled) from a horizontal plane perspective. I do not see where your model takes into account the release swivel action (release of PA#3).

Also, from my perspective, I can mentally picture the clubshaft hosel, and therefore attached clubhead, moving down-and-out according to your calculations. So, when you state that "Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°", I can accept/understand that the hosel is moving outwards and not only downwards, and I can mentally picture the hosel moving out 2.67 degrees at impact (or just pre-impact). However, I believe that the clubface is closed due to its inbuilt manufacturing specifications, which means that the clubface is automatically open (facing leftwards) relative to the hosel/clubhead swingpath by "X" degrees through impact. You stated that a hookface only means that the sweetspot is being behind the centerline, and you do not seemingly believe that the hookface alignment of the clubface also indicates that the clubface is directed leftwards. I believe that the clubface is directed leftwards (relative to the hosel/clubhead), and it allows the ball to go straight when the hosel/clubhead swing path is outwards (moving right-of-the-target). I therefore cannot understand why the hosel/clubhead must be aimed/swung leftwards to hit the ball straight - if anybody would suggest that it is the hosel/clubhead that must be aimed/swung leftwards. Or is it "something else" that must be aimed/swung leftwards?

Jeff.

 

[Zztop]

There is this thing called physics....and I "recommend" what science says.

I don't recommend something because someone says they are being "Scientific." I find two or three PHDs and some accurate measurements, and go from there.

Is there a thread that discusses this recommendation in great detail?

You will find NO BETTER short simple "explanation" than "detonum's" above.

But I'll do my best in this thread to smarten you and everyone else up.

As a side note, I am going to give a seminar on this information, on June 1, 2009, for the Tri-State PGA Section.

In particular, I would like to know whether the recommendation is to aim left and/or swing left?

You are going to have to lose the recommendation stuff as per above.

Anyhoo, you can aim anyplace you'd like.

But you have to SWING left of the target. WAY LEFT.

I would also like to know what one is aiming - the club and/or a specific body part?

All the body part alignments, in three dimensions, matter.

But at the end of the day....only the TOP and BOTTOM of the D-Plane matter to the ball.

Finally, I would like to read an "explanation" that explains the "specific" underlying geometry and physics that form the foundation for this recommendation.

Let's start with some terms:

In "dark blue," I will actually do some recommending—the terms I'd suggest folks who teach use for ease of use and learning. The "burnt orange" color is fro the terms TrackMan uses, and the dark green the Golfing Machine usage.

Swing Line

Horizontal Swing Plane - Plane Line in "Golfing Machine" terms, the base line of a plane.
​

In general, this is the "direction" of your swing.
​

Plane Angle

Vertical Swing Plane - Plane Angle Basic in "Golfing Machine" terms, the pitch of the roof—so to speak.
​

Clubhead Path

Club Path - The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.

Homer Kelley either mistakenly believed Clubhead Path not to influence ball flight. He believed that the Plane Line to be responsible for that half of the ball-flight equation.

Because the arc that the clubhead travels on is so big—relative to the 3/4th of an inch to 1/2 inch that the clubhead is on the ball—this path is actually nearly a dead straight line.
​

Attack Angle

The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the sky...on the Vertcial Axis.
​

True Path

A brilliant Manzella-ism that is the actual path of the clubhead in 3D space. Think of it as a combination of Club(head) Path and Attack Angle.
​

Face Angle

Where the clubface is "pointing" in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.
​

True Clubface

A another brilliant Manzella-ism that is where the clubface is actually pointing in 3D space. Think magnetic lie angle tool. Face Angle + Dynamic Loft + Delivered Lie Angle.
​

Dynamic Loft

The amount of "delivered" loft at impact. You can have a 60° wedge, but if you "de-lofted" it 10°, you had 50° of Dynamic Loft.
​

Spin Loft

Delivered Loft minus Attack Angle. A 60° wedge, de-lofted to 50° of "Delivered Loft" hit 6° on the way down, would have 56° of "Spin Loft."
​

D-Plane

A plane angle with three points, the ball, where the TRUE club face is pointing, and where the TRUE path is pointing. Most of the time, the TRUE PATh is on the bottom. The ball will start ~70-85% of the way to the TRUE CLUBFACE, and then curve—UP THE PLANE, toward the TRUE CLUBFACE, until gravity and (or) wind take it out of its journey.
​

Since the clubhead is striking the ball on the way down with an iron—approximately 6° with a 60° wedge, 5° with a pitching wedge, about 3° with a long iron—the clubhead is STILL TRAVELING downward, outward, and forward on the face of the plane (Vertical Swing Plane).

So, wherever that "Plane" is pointing (Horizontal Swing Plane), the TRUE PATH of that clubhead will be down and out to that line.

With a Driver—which you do not want to hit on the way down, but you can—when it is swung with a 45° Vertical Swing Plane (plane angle), the clubhead is traveling 1° out for every one degree down.

With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.56° out for every one degree down.


So....


Here is an example straight ball:
(with corrected math)

An 8-iron from 150 yards....

Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°

And since 1° at 100 yards is about ~1.75 yards....

And you hit your 8-iron 150 yards....

You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target!

That will give you the bottom of the D-Plane on the target line, and you now have to have the CLUBFACE square to the target, or in this case 2.67° open to the "Plane Line."

Pretty cool, eh?

And by the way, the "HOOKFACE" is simply the sweetspot being behind the center line.

All the above COULDN'T CARE LESS about it.



0.222222 x how many degrees less than 90°

is all the above dependent on your lie angles of your clubs being correct? Also
(The ball will start ~70-85% of the way to the TRUE CLUBFACE, and then curve—UP THE PLANE, toward the TRUE CLUBFACE). is this correct ?

 

[puttmaster]

"You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target!"

Puttmaster: the ball doesn't care where you aim ... technically speaking, you need to "SWING and/or AIM left" ... the swinging left part is essential ... the aiming left part is helpful (b/c it might help you swing left better) but not necessary.

Thanks Ryan and JG -- so since I use a SD pattern, I would simply recalibrate the plane line so that my set up is the necessary distance left of the target. Correct? That's the only way my brain can compute how to employ the SD pattern (aim right one yard, etc.) and "swing left" at the same time. Otherwise, it would seemingly require an over the top move.

(Sorry to be struggling with this, guys, but...Having always played a draw and thus always committed myself to "swing right," I'm just having trouble adjusting to now realizing that I need to "swing left." And finding a way to do that comfortably without feeling like I'm coming over the top.)

 

[JeffM]

jquidroz

You wrote-: "Since you are aiming left, when you hit the ball on the way down and on the way out, it will be right at the target."

Let me see if I can correctly understand your viewpoint. Are you stating that the clubface must be aimed left-of-the-target at address, so that the ball can go straight at the target - if the clubshaft hosel/clubhead is being swung down-and-out through impact?

If I understand you correctly, then I would not disagree with your assertion. That assertion would also "seemingly" mean that for the clubface to be aimed/swung left at the exact moment of impact, that the hosel/clubhead must be swung right-of-the-target (be moving down-and-out through impact).

Jeff.

 

[holeout]

Brian,

I, and I suspect many forum members, appreciate the fact that you made such a concerted effort to explain why-: "You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~2.67° at 150 yards....which is ~7 yards left of the target" when hitting an 8-iron 150 yards to get the ball to go straight.

However, I cannot understand what you mean when you state that a golfer has to swing 2.67 degrees left of the target. What is being swung left of the target?

From my perspective, a golfer swings the clubshaft and I believe that the clubshaft hosel should generate an in-to-square-to-in path through the impact zone. Attached to the clubshaft hosel is a clubhead and the clubhead will swivel into impact during the release swivel phase of the downswing. If the downswing release swivel release phase is perfected (perfect release of PA#3) then the clubhead will become square at impact (neither over-rolled or under-rolled) from a horizontal plane perspective. I do not see where your model takes into account the release swivel action (release of PA#3).

Also, from my perspective, I can mentally picture the clubshaft hosel, and therefore attached clubhead, moving down-and-out according to your calculations. So, when you state that "Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°", I can accept/understand that the hosel is moving outwards and not only downwards, and I can mentally picture the hosel moving out 2.67 degrees at impact (or just pre-impact). However, I believe that the clubface is closed due to its inbuilt manufacturing specifications, which means that the clubface is automatically open (facing leftwards) relative to the hosel/clubhead swingpath by "X" degrees through impact. You stated that a hookface only means that the sweetspot is being behind the centerline, and you do not seemingly believe that the hookface alignment of the clubface also indicates that the clubface is directed leftwards. I believe that the clubface is directed leftwards (relative to the hosel/clubhead), and it allows the ball to go straight when the hosel/clubhead swing path is outwards (moving right-of-the-target). I therefore cannot understand why the hosel/clubhead must be aimed/swung leftwards to hit the ball straight - if anybody would suggest that it is the hosel/clubhead that must be aimed/swung leftwards. Or is it "something else" that must be aimed/swung leftwards?

Jeff.

Jeff,

"Swing left" in this case means that your "swing line" (Manzella term)/ "plane line" (TGM term) should be aimed 7 yards left of target. Simple as that.

Now, let's say for your own golf swing, you tend to "make a swing line/plane line" that is, for argument's sake, 2.67 degrees left of target when you are "lined up straight" with, say, your feet. In this case, you could "aim yourself" dead at the target with your 8 iron, which is great! You would still swing the needed 2.67 degrees left of target, with a resultant perfectly straight "true path" and so long as you've got control of the clubface, you'll hit it right at the flag. Awesome!

But if you hit anything less than an 8-iron, you need to aim MORE LEFT if you swing the same way. And for clubs longer than an 8-iron, you'd need to aim MORE RIGHT if you swing the same way. Make sense yet?

 

[dbl]

Puttmad, he didn't say "SWING out" 2.67 degrees TOWARD the target.

You are aligned 7 yards left of the target; this is basically your plane line which you are swinging on, and you deliver a clubface which is open 2.67 degrees to that plane line.

 

[cmartingolf]

Second that...

Jeff,

"Swing left" in this case means that your "swing line" (Manzella term)/ "plane line" (TGM term) should be aimed 7 yards left of target. Simple as that.

.

 

[JonWil]

.

Chuck,

Where does the swing-line start and stop? What part of the player/club ensemble is the key scriber of the swing-line? I share Jeff's struggle with 'what is going left - & when.'

Thanks,

Jon