Aiming left/swinging left...MANZELLA STRIKES YET AGAIN!
- Thread starter JeffM
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Zztop
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Do you really think that the club looks like that when it strikes a ball? What about this:
Oh, and can you please provide Trackman readings or some other type of numerical data supporting your claims.
Exactly the one image is of a club in a static position the other is in a dynamic position , big difference. Film your brothers impact with one of those super slow motion cameras, then report back your findings
like fitting someone for loft and lie, they need to actually swing that thing and hit balls,its no good just standing there posing with it, it all changes when that stupid little club starts moving.
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curtisj76
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
BA-BLOOOOOM!!!!
I suggest you consult Fredrik Tuxen who wrote this article for TrackMan's January Newsletter, or Dr. Paul Wood, of PING, their Research Project Engineer, and the guy everyone in the company defers to on matters such as this.
You see, Jeff, I am not a doctor by trade, or a portfolio manager. I didn't take 20 years off to run someone's business and design courses. I never worked for a "Harmon," and I have toiled in the trenches of Golf Instruction, clawing my way as close to the top as I could and can everyday for the last 27 years.
I spend my money and I go to every worthwhile seminar I can attend. I have perfect attendance at the biggest ones, and I have spoken around the country on my profession.
In the next two months, including this coming Monday, I will speak at a PGA Seminar on this very subject.
I spent my hard earned money to visit Dr. Wood, and have spent a bunch of time testing things on TrackMan and 6° 3D.
This stuff is right, sir, and I am going to show you the light.
The Golfing Machine is a wonderful book, but these answers, and many others, are just not there. So pay close attention.
The clubhead is moving down 4° at impact.
Yes.
I will tell you this:
Get the notion that the clubhead and clubface does a whole lot during impact.
It doesn't.
I wasted a lot of time believing in a incorrect assumption.
I am not "implying," I am calculating, using the information I learned from TrackMan and confirmed with Dr. Wood.
You better, because that's the math.
There you go again from the "book."
According to Tuxen, Wood, Dr. Aaron Zick who speaks at The Golfing Machine Summits, and ME, proud owner of a 1000fps camera, and access to students like David Toms to take ultra-high speed pictures of (like I did last week, on a dead straight shot), the clubhead doesn't close more then a tenth or two degrees while on the face. Way less than the book suggests.
And, according to folks that own a 6° 3D machine, no one is even coming close to Horizontal Hinge action.
So, to "simplify" for those who like it that way—the clubhead does next to NO CLOSING during impact, and the very little it does, doesn't provide for different ball flight with the same IMPACT ALIGNMENTS if you actually could switch between a face that stayed vertical to the ground (Horizontal Hinging) or vertical to the plane (Angled Hinging).
That was about a simple as I could make it.
As you should now realize by reading my previous answer, that is no more a fact than Santee Claus.
None of what happens—allow me to repeat:
NONE of what happens prior to impact matters to the ball one iota.
No they can't.
TrackMan will make a monkey out of them—and you.
YOU HAVE TO SWING LEFT, unless you can tee it up and strile it level.
Period.
I watched PINGMAN hit straight balls. Your brother is NO MATCH for him.
PING has quite a few pretty fair players on the PGA TOUR on their staff.
Dr. Wood, confirmed there is no difference on real golfers and PINGMAN on the facts I have presented that you are just having a tough time accepting.
The graph you drew would hit a pull hook.
100% of the time.
Absolutely NOT.
And that has NO EFFECT on ball flight from a straight or draw or fade perspective.
ONLY LOFT and spin changes.
Big arse hook.
I feel so sorry for you.
Really.
So much time wasted....
Been there.
The ball couldn't care less about any plane line.
Really.
But IF you can trace a straight one, and you make ball-divot contact.
YOU HAVE TO SWING LEFT!!!!
With this and a plane line align at the target, and a ball on the ground you get:
Big hook.
Penalty shots.
Missed greens.
Next subject....
Jeff,
You are a guy with a lot of time on your hands who loves golf.
You did a lot of reading, and you thought you knew some really good stuff.
But then, you ran into some folks who knew a lot more than you, and most of them were "Golfing Machine" guys.
So, you spent a lot of time learning the book, which is a good thing.
Except for a couple of important item.
This being one of them.
Relax, I just gave you all the CORRECT answers.
Whew!
I suggest you consult Fredrik Tuxen who wrote this article for TrackMan's January Newsletter, or Dr. Paul Wood, of PING, their Research Project Engineer, and the guy everyone in the company defers to on matters such as this.
You see, Jeff, I am not a doctor by trade, or a portfolio manager. I didn't take 20 years off to run someone's business and design courses. I never worked for a "Harmon," and I have toiled in the trenches of Golf Instruction, clawing my way as close to the top as I could and can everyday for the last 27 years.
I spend my money and I go to every worthwhile seminar I can attend. I have perfect attendance at the biggest ones, and I have spoken around the country on my profession.
In the next two months, including this coming Monday, I will speak at a PGA Seminar on this very subject.
I spent my hard earned money to visit Dr. Wood, and have spent a bunch of time testing things on TrackMan and 6° 3D.
This stuff is right, sir, and I am going to show you the light.
The Golfing Machine is a wonderful book, but these answers, and many others, are just not there. So pay close attention.
The clubhead is moving down 4° at impact.
Yes.
I will tell you this:
Get the notion that the clubhead and clubface does a whole lot during impact.
It doesn't.
I wasted a lot of time believing in a incorrect assumption.
I am not "implying," I am calculating, using the information I learned from TrackMan and confirmed with Dr. Wood.
You better, because that's the math.
There you go again from the "book."
According to Tuxen, Wood, Dr. Aaron Zick who speaks at The Golfing Machine Summits, and ME, proud owner of a 1000fps camera, and access to students like David Toms to take ultra-high speed pictures of (like I did last week, on a dead straight shot), the clubhead doesn't close more then a tenth or two degrees while on the face. Way less than the book suggests.
And, according to folks that own a 6° 3D machine, no one is even coming close to Horizontal Hinge action.
So, to "simplify" for those who like it that way—the clubhead does next to NO CLOSING during impact, and the very little it does, doesn't provide for different ball flight with the same IMPACT ALIGNMENTS if you actually could switch between a face that stayed vertical to the ground (Horizontal Hinging) or vertical to the plane (Angled Hinging).
That was about a simple as I could make it.
As you should now realize by reading my previous answer, that is no more a fact than Santee Claus.
None of what happens—allow me to repeat:
NONE of what happens prior to impact matters to the ball one iota.
No they can't.
TrackMan will make a monkey out of them—and you.
YOU HAVE TO SWING LEFT, unless you can tee it up and strile it level.
Period.
I watched PINGMAN hit straight balls. Your brother is NO MATCH for him.
PING has quite a few pretty fair players on the PGA TOUR on their staff.
Dr. Wood, confirmed there is no difference on real golfers and PINGMAN on the facts I have presented that you are just having a tough time accepting.
The graph you drew would hit a pull hook.
100% of the time.
Absolutely NOT.
And that has NO EFFECT on ball flight from a straight or draw or fade perspective.
ONLY LOFT and spin changes.
Big arse hook.
I feel so sorry for you.
Really.
So much time wasted....
Been there.
The ball couldn't care less about any plane line.
Really.
But IF you can trace a straight one, and you make ball-divot contact.
YOU HAVE TO SWING LEFT!!!!
With this and a plane line align at the target, and a ball on the ground you get:
Big hook.
Penalty shots.
Missed greens.
Next subject....
Jeff,
You are a guy with a lot of time on your hands who loves golf.
You did a lot of reading, and you thought you knew some really good stuff.
But then, you ran into some folks who knew a lot more than you, and most of them were "Golfing Machine" guys.
So, you spent a lot of time learning the book, which is a good thing.
Except for a couple of important item.
This being one of them.
Relax, I just gave you all the CORRECT answers.
Whew!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
When I heard hitting and swinging and impact swivel i said "We're in for a show."
Shot Limit
New
Sweeeeeeeeeeet!
I'm havin a Budwieser on that one.
I'm havin a Budwieser on that one.
Brian,
Thanks for commenting.
A few questions.
Question number 1:
Here is a table from that paper (by Fred Tuxen) that you recommended.
He states that the optimum method of hitting the ball straight is to have a zero attack angle and a zero clubhead path at impact.
He also produced this diagram to demonstrate that point.
It is my understanding (from this article) that if one placed the ball at low point that one could obtain a zero attack angle when hitting an iron and that one could obtain a zero clubhead path angle if one also squared the clubface by impact. Therefore, if one used an eight-iron and clipped the ball off the turf (because it was at low point and therefore had a zero attack angle) and if the clubhead/clubface was square to the ball-target line at impact, then the ball would go straight. Do you agree?
Question number 2:
In that table he also states that one could hit the ball straight with an inside-out clubhead path by hitting the ball on the heel of the clubface. He also states in that table that "heel clubhead speed is slower than center clubhead speed". If heel clubhead speed is slower than center clubhead speed, that statement seemingly implies that that the clubface is closing during impact. Do you believe that it is happening as a result of a heel impact, or the other way around?
Question number 3:
He also states that when the attack angle is -5 degrees due to hitting down on the ball, that it would produce an inside-out clubhead path of 3 degrees when using an eight-iron (presuming a 57 degree clubshaft angle). Then according to table 3, if one had an "inside-out" clubhead swingpath of 3 degrees, that one could hit the ball straight if one hit the ball closer to the heel. Do you agree that it is an alternative method of hitting the ball straight - rather than adjusting the horizontal swing plane?
Question number 4.
In that eight-iron example in question number 3 where one has a 5 degree downward attack angle which results in a 3 degree inside-out clubhead path, one could theoretically also ensure a straight ball flight by ensuring that the heel clubhead speed is slower than the center clubhead speed - by closing the clubhead fractionally during impact. Do you agree/disagree that it is possible?
Jeff.
Thanks for commenting.
A few questions.
Question number 1:
Here is a table from that paper (by Fred Tuxen) that you recommended.
He states that the optimum method of hitting the ball straight is to have a zero attack angle and a zero clubhead path at impact.
He also produced this diagram to demonstrate that point.
It is my understanding (from this article) that if one placed the ball at low point that one could obtain a zero attack angle when hitting an iron and that one could obtain a zero clubhead path angle if one also squared the clubface by impact. Therefore, if one used an eight-iron and clipped the ball off the turf (because it was at low point and therefore had a zero attack angle) and if the clubhead/clubface was square to the ball-target line at impact, then the ball would go straight. Do you agree?
Question number 2:
In that table he also states that one could hit the ball straight with an inside-out clubhead path by hitting the ball on the heel of the clubface. He also states in that table that "heel clubhead speed is slower than center clubhead speed". If heel clubhead speed is slower than center clubhead speed, that statement seemingly implies that that the clubface is closing during impact. Do you believe that it is happening as a result of a heel impact, or the other way around?
Question number 3:
He also states that when the attack angle is -5 degrees due to hitting down on the ball, that it would produce an inside-out clubhead path of 3 degrees when using an eight-iron (presuming a 57 degree clubshaft angle). Then according to table 3, if one had an "inside-out" clubhead swingpath of 3 degrees, that one could hit the ball straight if one hit the ball closer to the heel. Do you agree that it is an alternative method of hitting the ball straight - rather than adjusting the horizontal swing plane?
Question number 4.
In that eight-iron example in question number 3 where one has a 5 degree downward attack angle which results in a 3 degree inside-out clubhead path, one could theoretically also ensure a straight ball flight by ensuring that the heel clubhead speed is slower than the center clubhead speed - by closing the clubhead fractionally during impact. Do you agree/disagree that it is possible?
Jeff.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Barking up the "Heel Hit" tree....geez.
Actually I don't.
Tuxen was talking "in general" with the "level hit."
Like with a Driver.
Having hit 100s of shots on TrackMan TRYING to hit the ball at low point—with an iron, I would go so far as to say it was close to impossible off of a tight lie.
Now off a tee...easy as pie.
But, yes, it would go straight.
The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER.
Geez....
Absolutely NOT!
A heel hit will go NOWHERE, dude.
He is just making a point.
You have to hit the ball near the sweetspot to play a lick.
DOUBLE geez....
No.
The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER.
Dude, seriously, you are losing this "debate" a 100 to nothing.
Just admit the book is wrong, Wood and Tuxen and TrackMan are right, and so am I, and go rent some time on a TrackMan.
Question number 1:
Here is a table from that paper (by Fred Tuxen) that you recommended.
He states that the optimum method of hitting the ball straight is to have a zero attack angle and a zero clubhead path at impact.
He also produced this diagram to demonstrate that point.
It is my understanding (from this article) that if one placed the ball at low point that one could obtain a zero attack angle when hitting an iron and that one could obtain a zero clubhead path angle if one also squared the clubface by impact. Therefore, if one used an eight-iron and clipped the ball off the turf (because it was at low point and therefore had a zero attack angle) and if the clubhead/clubface was square to the ball-target line at impact, then the ball would go straight. Do you agree?
Actually I don't.
Tuxen was talking "in general" with the "level hit."
Like with a Driver.
Having hit 100s of shots on TrackMan TRYING to hit the ball at low point—with an iron, I would go so far as to say it was close to impossible off of a tight lie.
Now off a tee...easy as pie.
But, yes, it would go straight.
The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER.
Geez....
Absolutely NOT!
A heel hit will go NOWHERE, dude.
He is just making a point.
You have to hit the ball near the sweetspot to play a lick.
DOUBLE geez....
No.
The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER.
Dude, seriously, you are losing this "debate" a 100 to nothing.
Just admit the book is wrong, Wood and Tuxen and TrackMan are right, and so am I, and go rent some time on a TrackMan.
i think that may be the only way to really get this resolved. jeff, i think the point of this is that brian et al used to agree/teach some of the same points you are making, but new technology has led them to see the error in some of those "laws" and "facts."
perhaps you could give trackman a try? i am sure a lot of people thought hk was crazy at times, too.
A short intermission.
You really need to go read some of the posts from mandrin, Brian and others over the past year. The ball is on the clubface for something like .0004 of a second. The heavy hit is a myth. The idea that you manipulate ball flight by moving the face or swivelling during impact time is a myth. It's liberating when you think about it -- all those other idealized notions are actually just ways of influencing impact conditions for the .0004 seconds the clubface touches the ball.
We now return you to the main feature.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
No.
It is the clubhead path of a "Straight Plane Line."
When I say "Swing Left," I mean rotate the plane line left.
Ir in the case of Ben's mat, rotate the WHOLE MAT left!
Brian - you wrote-: "Dude, seriously, you are losing this "debate" a 100 to nothing."
It is a pity that you see our forum interaction as a competitive debate. From my perspective, I view it as an intellectual exploration. I am not tied to any intellectual ideology (eg. TGM purism) regarding the golf swing and I am willing to explore any "new" golf swing insights so that I can better understand the mechanics/physics/geometry of the golf swing.
In that article, Fred Tuxen didn't recommend aiming left/swinging left to ensure a straight ball flight when hitting down on the ball with an iron. Why not?
I realize that not hitting the sweetspot will affect carry distance. However, carry distance may not be a major consideration when hitting a short iron. How much carry distance would one lose by hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm off the sweetspot (closer to the heel) when hitting 5 degrees down with an eight iron? Also, how much would a 1cm or 2cm closer-to-the-heel strike affect the clubhead/clubface path angle that is needed to ensure a straight ball flight with an inside-out clubhead path angle of 3 degrees (due to hitting down 5 degrees with an eight-iron that has a 57 degree clubshaft angle)?
You also stated-: "The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER."
Could you please elaborate on that point? If the clubhead is traveling at 100mph at impact collision, and the clubhead is not closing during impact, why is the heel traveling slower than the center of the clubface during impact?
Jeff.
It is a pity that you see our forum interaction as a competitive debate. From my perspective, I view it as an intellectual exploration. I am not tied to any intellectual ideology (eg. TGM purism) regarding the golf swing and I am willing to explore any "new" golf swing insights so that I can better understand the mechanics/physics/geometry of the golf swing.
In that article, Fred Tuxen didn't recommend aiming left/swinging left to ensure a straight ball flight when hitting down on the ball with an iron. Why not?
I realize that not hitting the sweetspot will affect carry distance. However, carry distance may not be a major consideration when hitting a short iron. How much carry distance would one lose by hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm off the sweetspot (closer to the heel) when hitting 5 degrees down with an eight iron? Also, how much would a 1cm or 2cm closer-to-the-heel strike affect the clubhead/clubface path angle that is needed to ensure a straight ball flight with an inside-out clubhead path angle of 3 degrees (due to hitting down 5 degrees with an eight-iron that has a 57 degree clubshaft angle)?
You also stated-: "The heel is going slower because it is CLOSER TO THE GOLFER."
Could you please elaborate on that point? If the clubhead is traveling at 100mph at impact collision, and the clubhead is not closing during impact, why is the heel traveling slower than the center of the clubface during impact?
Jeff.
AHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAA
wait I think I understand........I always thought I played my best when playing a push......but I guess it was really straight????
also Brian ................does this mean my 2-3 degree out to in swing IS swinging left?
well I dont guees it matters, if i am hitting it straight huh?
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Niblick - you wrote-: "The heavy hit is a myth. The idea that you manipulate ball flight by moving the face or swivelling during impact time is a myth."
I have read those posts, and I certainly am not sympathetic to the "heavy hit" belief or any belief that one should hand-manipulate the clubface during impact.
Jeff.
I have read those posts, and I certainly am not sympathetic to the "heavy hit" belief or any belief that one should hand-manipulate the clubface during impact.
Jeff.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
After some really good explanations by me, you wrote...
At that point, it was game on.
This IS about being right.
And, I'm right.
But ALL of your arguments are book-based.
Do you really think I, Tuxen, and wood might be wrong, and YOU might be right?
If you do, you're high.
It wasn't a "how to" article.
Trust me pal, I can call him tomorrow and get a quote to back me up.
Don't you realize i asked ALL OF THE ABOVE to Dr. Wood and got VERY SPECIFIC numbers on straightway flight.
So specific, I won't release them out of respect.
But, he told me three dozen times on the subject matter, that I was DEAD ON.
Good enough for you?
You are kidding, right?
This forum, and my teaching, and playing golf at even a decent level, are ALL BASED ON SWEETSPOT CONTACT.
Put the "heel hit" to bed.
You'll get NO POINTS from anyone on that.
It IS CLOSING, just not enough to matter a lick, and next to infinitesimally different on mathematically generated Horizontal vs. vertical hinge action.
Everything I said in my posts were verified by one of the smartest guys in the business, you think you are smarter than him?
Admit defeat, and start asking questions about how to adjust your previously held—tragically flawed—beliefs.
Jeff - This one caught me by surprise when I first saw it on the Trackman site also, but think about it. If the lie of the club was 90 degrees and you swung it directly under your shoulder sockets, then yes, the clubhead speed would be consistent across the clubface. But, at the typical lie angle of clubs swung at an angle, a point on the hosel is closer to the axis of rotation than a point on the toe(at the same height above the sole) thus the faster speed even without the closing action relative to the path that you have been talking about.
Jay
Z
Zztop
Guest
Originally Posted by JeffMann View Post
I realize that not hitting the sweetspot will affect carry distance. However, carry distance may not be a major consideration when hitting a short iron. How much carry distance would one lose by hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm off the sweetspot (closer to the heel) when hitting 5 degrees down with an eight iron?
WOW! I CAN FINALLY GET RID OF ALL THOSE ANNOYING EXTRA CLUBS , PLUS THEY WEIGH TOO MUCH, NOT WORRIED ABOUT YARDAGE ANYMORE, NOT THAT IMPORTANT. GET RID OF SKY CADDY, NEVER MIND THAT GET RID OF CADDIES, THAT WOULD SPEED UP PLAY ON TOUR BIG TIME, NO MORE YAPPING ABOUT EXACT YARDAGE. I LOVE IT, YOU SOLVED THE SLOW PLAY ISSUE!
I realize that not hitting the sweetspot will affect carry distance. However, carry distance may not be a major consideration when hitting a short iron. How much carry distance would one lose by hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm off the sweetspot (closer to the heel) when hitting 5 degrees down with an eight iron?
WOW! I CAN FINALLY GET RID OF ALL THOSE ANNOYING EXTRA CLUBS , PLUS THEY WEIGH TOO MUCH, NOT WORRIED ABOUT YARDAGE ANYMORE, NOT THAT IMPORTANT. GET RID OF SKY CADDY, NEVER MIND THAT GET RID OF CADDIES, THAT WOULD SPEED UP PLAY ON TOUR BIG TIME, NO MORE YAPPING ABOUT EXACT YARDAGE. I LOVE IT, YOU SOLVED THE SLOW PLAY ISSUE!
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