Aiming left/swinging left...MANZELLA STRIKES YET AGAIN!

[birdie_man]

Nice Brian...

Will have to read all this tomorrow. (I just skimmed)

Good luck on June 1st. This is good practice, I guess.

(Ba-blooom...)

 

[pieman]

any chance to do a video clip you could post on youtube regarding this whole matter? i think a visual would help a lot understand this whole concept, especially when you talk varying degrees of parts of the swing. thanks B

 

[niblick1]

Niblick - you wrote-: "The heavy hit is a myth. The idea that you manipulate ball flight by moving the face or swivelling during impact time is a myth."

I have read those posts, and I certainly am not sympathetic to the "heavy hit" belief or any belief that one should hand-manipulate the clubface during impact.

Jeff.

My bad. I just thought that concept was implicit in a couple of your comments.

 

[JeffM]

Jeff - This one caught me by surprise when I first saw it on the Trackman site also, but think about it. If the lie of the club was 90 degrees and you swung it directly under your shoulder sockets, then yes, the clubhead speed would be consistent across the clubface. But, at the typical lie angle of clubs swung at an angle, a point on the hosel is closer to the axis of rotation than a point on the toe(at the same height above the sole) thus the faster speed even without the closing action relative to the path that you have been talking about.

Jay

Jay,

I can understand that point. It makes sense.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Brian,

On re-reading the Fred Tuxen article, and thinking about it a great deal, your idea about aiming left/swinging left with an eight-iron seems increasingly sensible.

You stated that one needs to shift the plane line 2.67 degrees to the left to ensure that the clubface faces the target at impact to ensure a straight ball flight. How do you accurately aim left to such a small degree eg. 2 degrees?

What do you recommend for golfers who have less of a downward attack angle when hitting irons.

Here is video clip of Tom Watson hitting an iron.

YouTube - Tom Watson

He is simply clipping the ball off the turf without producing a divot. I presume that his clubshaft attack angle at impact is close to zero. Should a golfer who clips the ball off the turf like Tom Watson aim straight? Where should he position his ball under those circumstances?

Consider this photo again.

I have simply placed the club on the ground in its neutral position - where the sole of the club is perfectly soled. If a golfer gets the club to impact using a zero clubshaft attack angle so that the clubface faces the target (exactly as demonstrated in that photo), will the ball not go straight?

Here is a photo showing Tiger Woods clubhead path when hitting a driver.

I get the impression that his clubhead is traveling almost parallel to the ground immediately pre-impact. Also, his clubshaft is near-vertical at impact implying that his ball position is at low point (or close to low point). Should Tiger Woods therefore aim straight to ensure a straight ball flight?

What about long-drive competitors who hit up at the ball. According to Fred Tuxen's article, a positive attack angle produces an out-to-in clubhead path. Should they therefore aim right if they want to hit the ball straight?

By the way, I was not advocating that a golfer hit the ball closer to the heel when I asked the question about the "effect of hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm closer to the heel". I simply want to understand why hitting a ball closer to the heel affects ball flight if the clubface is square to the target at impact, and I would like to know to what degree it affects ball flight accuracy.

Jeff.

 

[needham]

how about a sequence of photos (with lines drawn) to show what "swing left" LOOKS like

 

[Frizit]

how about a sequence of photos (with lines drawn) to show what "swing left" LOOKS like

Ever seen the yellow brick road?

 

[needham]

Ever seen the yellow brick road?

on the web version of the video, I remember it being talked about..............but I want pics........easier to see for me anyways

if I line the balls up for yellow brick road, I think I would go over the top to try to get there......hence my need/want for pics

 

[savydan]

Don't go over the top, just aim there and swing there.

Or you can go over the top, remember we're only talking about small adjustments. Coupala degrees. As small as you can feel but still feel somthin' different.

 

[ggsjpc]

Now you're getting it....

Brian,

On re-reading the Fred Tuxen article, and thinking about it a great deal, your idea about aiming left/swinging left with an eight-iron seems increasingly sensible.

You stated that one needs to shift the plane line 2.24 degrees to the left to ensure that the clubface faces the target at impact to ensure a straight ball flight. How do you accurately aim left to such a small degree eg. 2 degrees?

What do you recommend for golfers who have less of a downward attack angle when hitting irons.

Here is video clip of Tom Watson hitting an iron.

YouTube - Tom Watson

He is simply clipping the ball off the turf without producing a divot. I presume that his clubshaft attack angle at impact is close to zero. Should a golfer who clips the ball off the turf like Tom Watson aim straight? Where should he position his ball under those circumstances?

Consider this photo again.

I have simply placed the club on the ground in its neutral position - where the sole of the club is perfectly soled. If a golfer gets the club to impact using a zero clubshaft attack angle so that the clubface faces the target (exactly as demonstrated in that photo), will the ball not go straight?

Here is a photo showing Tiger Woods clubhead path when hitting a driver.

I get the impression that his clubhead is traveling almost parallel to the ground immediately pre-impact. Also, his clubshaft is near-vertical at impact implying that his ball position is at low point (or close to low point). Should Tiger Woods therefore aim straight to ensure a straight ball flight?

What about long-drive competitors who hit up at the ball. According to Fred Tuxen's article, a positive attack angle produces an out-to-in clubhead path. Should they therefore aim right if they want to hit the ball straight?

By the way, I was not advocating that a golfer hit the ball closer to the heel when I asked the question about the "effect of hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm closer to the heel". I simply want to understand why hitting a ball closer to the heel affects ball flight if the clubface is square to the target at impact, and I would like to know to what degree it affects ball flight accuracy.

Jeff.

Good questions that I will let BMan answer.....

 

[needham]

anyone know the closest trackman to MEMPHIS.........Zgolf had one and now the are belly up........

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

JeffMann...in reference to watson

The shallower the angle of attack the less "down" you are hitting the ball thus the less LEFT you need to swing for a straight shot. Make sense?

To answer someone else's question; yes if you are aiming straight and swinging on plane with a tee'd up driver and hit up on it the ball will go left. To counteract the up hit you need to swing a bit more right.

 

[blehnhard]

Everone Seem to be Making a Simple Idea Difficult

Lets think it thru this way.

Clubhead moves in an arc. At any point on that arc there is a tangent that would be the direction an object departing the arc (i.e. the ball) would take (assuming the clubface is square to the arc).

Assume that good players have the clubface "quite square to the arc" - lets say from 12" behind impact to 12" past impact (i.e. no independent club face movement).

If the plane line is determined by low point, the any impact prior to low point (swinging down) would have the tanget pointed to the right of the plane line and any impact past low point (swinging up) would have the tangent left of the plane line.

Imagine the golfer (or Ping Man etc) on a platform (that includes a plane line with the ball placed on the plane line).

If the golfer is hitting down, he swivels the platform slightly to the left - impact is made prior to low point and the tangent (flight of the ball) is to the target if he has swiveled the platform the correct amount to compensate for his "downness". Does the opposite for a swinging up with the driver - swivels the platform slightly to the right and the tangent (flight of the ball) is to the target.

You are not swinging any more "left" (or "right") than you would normally swing for your given address to the plane line. Your are only adjusting the intitial alignment of the "machine".

So in effect, all downward strikes are just small "pushes" in relation to the plane line, and all upward strikes are small "pulls" in relation to the plane line.

In relation to "true club path" (not the plane line) - all draws / hooks are "pull" draws / hooks and all fades / slices are "push" fades / slices

 

[djd]

spin loft and 6* 3D machine

There is this thing called physics....and I "recommend" what science says.

[/INDENT]
Dynamic Loft

The amount of "delivered" loft at impact. You can have a 60° wedge, but if you "de-lofted" it 10°, you had 50° of Dynamic Loft.
​

Spin Loft

Delivered Loft minus Attack Angle. A 60° wedge, de-lofted to 50° of "Delivered Loft" hit 6° on the way down, would have 56° of "Spin Loft."

[/SIZE]​

brian- i don't want to sidetrack this thread but can you explain spin loft - specifically why is the negative angle of attack additive? i understand that subtracting a negative is equivalent to adding a positive but when i attempt to visualize a steeper angle of attack (which would correspond to larger negative number) i see the clubface becoming more horizontal which i thought would reduce loft. for example, if as in the above a 60* wedge were delofted to 50* and hit 40* on the way down the spin loft equation would yield positive 90* (=50--40) or straight vertical loft. i suspect that i am missing something here, could you please clarify.

also, what is a 6* 3D machine?

thanks.​

 

[curtisj76]

To answer someone else's question; yes if you are aiming straight and swinging on plane with a tee'd up driver and hit up on it the ball will go left. To counteract the up hit you need to swing a bit more right.

So how do you hit a fade while hitting up? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[jguidroz]

So how do you hit a fade while hitting up? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

You should watch me hit!

Path determines where the ball starts. So with a driver, if you aim straight, and have a positive AoA, the ball with start left of your target. With the face closed to the plane line, the ball will draw or hook even more left. With the face square to the plane line, the ball will go straight, but still left of the target. With the face open to the plane line, the ball will fade or slice depending on how open the face is.

 

[Brian Manzella]

La, da, dee. La, de, da.....

On re-reading the Fred Tuxen article, and thinking about it a great deal, your idea about aiming left/swinging left with an eight-iron seems increasingly sensible.

Hmmm....

You stated that one needs to shift the plane line 2.67 degrees to the left to ensure that the clubface faces the target at impact to ensure a straight ball flight.

I said NOTHING of the kind.

You keep getting hung up on the face....

The REAL DEAL is the PATH, the bottom of the D-Plane, which is NEVER pointing down the Plane Line unless contact is dead level, which is ONLY FEASIBLE off of a tee.

The face needs to be square too.

How do you accurately aim left to such a small degree eg. 2 degrees?

I think most 10 handicaps can aim 7 yards left on purpose.

What do you recommend for golfers who have less of a downward attack angle when hitting irons.

Aim/Swing less left.

...Tom Watson hitting an iron...is simply clipping the ball off the turf without producing a divot. I presume that his clubshaft attack angle at impact is close to zero.

No chance sir.

None.

You are confusing three separate things, which are:

1. How downward the clubhead is moving at impact.

2. How much forward lean a golfer has at impact.

3. How much divot a golfer takes AFTER impact.
​

Our own Kevin Shields, has about a 6-8° downward strike, and takes very little divot, and doesn't have a lot of forward lean.

The PGA TOUR Averages THREE TIMES AS MUCH forward lean as downward strike.

Really.

Should a golfer who clips the ball off the turf like Tom Watson aim straight? Where should he position his ball under those circumstances?

No.

Trust me, nobody that can play is hitting down less than a couple of degrees.

When I tried to get a "level strike" with a six-iron on TrackMan, the shot I hit with 1.2° downward almost hot the roof of the teaching building.

Ball position....that's for another 10 page thread.

Consider this photo again.

I have simply placed the club on the ground in its neutral position - where the sole of the club is perfectly soled. If a golfer gets the club to impact using a zero clubshaft attack angle so that the clubface faces the target (exactly as demonstrated in that photo), will the ball not go straight?

Where in the WORLD did you get the idea that bounce dictates "perfect" shaft lean?

Taking all of the bounce off the club with forward lean is ABSOLUTELY NOT CORRECT.

You an hit down with a ZERO DEGREE shaft angle, and you can hit up with a forward leaning shaft.

Here is a photo showing Tiger Woods clubhead path when hitting a driver.

I get the impression that his clubhead is traveling almost parallel to the ground immediately pre-impact. Also, his clubshaft is near-vertical at impact implying that his ball position is at low point (or close to low point). Should Tiger Woods therefore aim straight to ensure a straight ball flight?

If hit had a level strike, and a square clubface at IMPACT, he should aim straight.

Of course this is NOWHERE NEAR OPTIMUM.

I hit the ball with a driver nearly as optimum as possible.

At 5° upward (my average) to hit a straight shot, I must swing 24.5 yards to the right.

Re-read the last sentence slowly, I don't want your head to explode.

What about long-drive competitors who hit up at the ball. According to Fred Tuxen's article, a positive attack angle produces an out-to-in clubhead path. Should they therefore aim right if they want to hit the ball straight?

Hey, good question.

Answer above.

By the way, I was not advocating that a golfer hit the ball closer to the heel when I asked the question about the "effect of hitting the ball 1cm or 2cm closer to the heel". I simply want to understand why hitting a ball closer to the heel affects ball flight if the clubface is square to the target at impact, and I would like to know to what degree it affects ball flight accuracy.

I will post tonight a swing of a mini-tour player I taught for 4 hours today.

Actually, not his "Swing"....his overhead 1000fps through the ball path and clubface.

He hit it a bit in the heel.

You need to see it.

IT VIOLENTLY CLOSES THE FACE AND DESTROYS THE IMPACT ALIGNMENTS!

 

[Brian Manzella]

WORLD CLASS, HALL-of-FAME POST!!!!

Lets think it thru this way.

Clubhead moves in an arc. At any point on that arc there is a tangent that would be the direction an object departing the arc (i.e. the ball) would take (assuming the clubface is square to the arc).

Assume that good players have the clubface "quite square to the arc" - lets say from 12" behind impact to 12" past impact (i.e. no independent club face movement).

If the plane line is determined by low point, the any impact prior to low point (swinging down) would have the tanget pointed to the right of the plane line and any impact past low point (swinging up) would have the tangent left of the plane line.

Imagine the golfer (or Ping Man etc) on a platform (that includes a plane line with the ball placed on the plane line).

If the golfer is hitting down, he swivels the platform slightly to the left - impact is made prior to low point and the tangent (flight of the ball) is to the target if he has swiveled the platform the correct amount to compensate for his "downness". Does the opposite for a swinging up with the driver - swivels the platform slightly to the right and the tangent (flight of the ball) is to the target.

You are not swinging any more "left" (or "right") than you would normally swing for your given address to the plane line. Your are only adjusting the intitial alignment of the "machine".

So in effect, all downward strikes are just small "pushes" in relation to the plane line, and all upward strikes are small "pulls" in relation to the plane line.

In relation to "true club path" (not the plane line) - all draws / hooks are "pull" draws / hooks and all fades / slices are "push" fades / slices

Great job, Mr. Bruce!

 

[Matt 4-L]

You should watch me hit!

Path determines where the ball starts. So with a driver, if you aim straight, and have a positive AoA, the ball with start left of your target. With the face closed to the plane line, the ball will draw or hook even more left. With the face square to the plane line, the ball will go straight, but still left of the target. With the face open to the plane line, the ball will fade or slice depending on how open the face is.

I am assuming thats a typo?

 

[Kevin Shields]

So how do you hit a fade while hitting up? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Have the face open to the path