Aiming left/swinging left...MANZELLA STRIKES YET AGAIN!

[Kevin Shields]

We have no idea how much down Tom Watson is hitting until he's on Trackman. He probable is hitting quite a bit down even though he's picking it. The reason he doesnt need to aim a ton left is because his very vertical plane angle, which lessens the effect of downward hit on the true path.

And Brian......wait till you see the NEW numbers. 1.5 left 4.0 down. Yeah, baby! Building blocks to the rescue! Show you sunday at the big "O".

 

[Kevin Shields]

brian- i don't want to sidetrack this thread but can you explain spin loft - specifically why is the negative angle of attack additive? i understand that subtracting a negative is equivalent to adding a positive but when i attempt to visualize a steeper angle of attack (which would correspond to larger negative number) i see the clubface becoming more horizontal which i thought would reduce loft. for example, if as in the above a 60* wedge were delofted to 50* and hit 40* on the way down the spin loft equation would yield positive 90* (=50--40) or straight vertical loft. i suspect that i am missing something here, could you please clarify.

also, what is a 6* 3D machine?

thanks.

Sure, most of the time downward attack will lessen the loft ( 46 degree pitching wedge delofted at impact 10 degress gives the ball 36 degrees of delivered loft) Then you take into account, say, 5 degrees of downward attack which makes 41 degrees of spin loft.

 

[texagjosh]

Are "swinging left" and "dragging the handle" synonymous?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Are "swinging left" and "dragging the handle" synonymous?

When I say "Swing Left" I simply mean this:

The "Hula Hoop" of your golf swing need to be oriented LEFT.

"Drag the Handle" has all sorts of connotations, but my one sentence definition is this:

"Instead of letting the weight of the club dictate release, DRAG THE HANDLE on purpose to delay it.

 

[JeffM]

If a golfer "knows" that the ball is going to land 5 yards right of his target when hitting an 8-iron straight towards the target, he could aim/swing left 5 yards to ensure that the ball lands at the target? I presume that he could accomplish the same goal by aiming straight at the target while closing his clubface slightly at address. Why is one method better than the alternative method?

Jeff.

 

[ggsjpc]

Because in your second method the ball would curve more than 5 yards and start left of the target.

 

[JeffM]

Because in your second method the ball would curve more than 5 yards and start left of the target.

Why would the ball start left of the target?

With a neutral grip and a downward attack angle of 5 degrees, Brian has calculated that the clubface would be facing 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact. If one closed the clubface slightly at address, then the clubface could be facing less than 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact.

Jeff.

 

[ggsjpc]

I don't believe that Brian calculated that the clubface would be pointing 2.67 degrees to the right. The 2d path of the head would be 2.67 degrees to the right. If you close the face at address and return the face to that shape when you strike the ball the ball will "basically" start where the face is pointed which at set up was left of target.

 

[dannyc]

With a neutral grip and a downward attack angle of 5 degrees, Brian has calculated that the clubface would be facing 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact.
Jeff.

Whoa! read post #77 again.

 

[JeffM]

ggsjpc - you wrote-: "I don't believe that Brian calculated that the clubface would be pointing 2.67 degrees to the right. The 2d path of the head would be 2.67 degrees to the right. If you close the face at address and return the face to that shape when you strike the ball the ball will "basically" start where the face is pointed which at set up was left of target."

Hang on a second!

If the secondary path of the head is 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact, where is clubface pointing at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation)? Are you implying that the clubface sweetspot is not oriented in the same direction as the secondary path of the clubhead?

Consider the following experiment.

Adopt a neutral grip and a neutral clubface at low point. That is theoretically how one should ensure that the clubface is neither open or closed when one grips the club. Then adopt an impact fix alignment posture. Is the clubface not slightly open to the target at impact fix. Repeat the impact fix alignment posture experiment, but hold the clubhead at a 5 degree angle to the ground. Is the clubface open or square to the target? Where is the clubface pointing?

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I thought we were getting close.....

ggsjpc - you wrote-: "I don't believe that Brian calculated that the clubface would be pointing 2.67 degrees to the right. The 2d path of the head would be 2.67 degrees to the right. If you close the face at address and return the face to that shape when you strike the ball the ball will "basically" start where the face is pointed which at set up was left of target."

This is correct.

If you have a straight plane line, and a 2.67° inside-out STRIKE, and a square clubface, you'll hit a shot that starts just right of the target and curves far left.

If the secondary path of the head is 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact, where is clubface pointing at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation)?

Any damn place you please.

Are you implying that the clubface sweetspot is not oriented in the same direction as the secondary path of the clubhead?

The golfer can, and does, override any so-called "Automatic Alignment" of the clubface—both relative to the plan line, and the TRUE PATH. In fact, they MUST, at times, do just that to hit it straight.

Consider the following experiment.

Adopt a neutral grip and a neutral clubface at low point. That is theoretically how one should ensure that the clubface is neither open or closed when one grips the club. Then adopt an impact fix alignment posture. Is the clubface not slightly open to the target at impact fix. Repeat the impact fix alignment posture experiment, but hold the clubhead at a 5 degree angle to the ground. Is the clubface open or square to the target? Where is the clubface pointing?

Not trying to be flip here Jeff, but, NONE of what you just said means ANYTHING to this discussion.

You MUST get the following right in your head:

The ball knows NOTHING about the swing. About the grip. About "hinge Action."

About 25 years ago, the Uniroyal company was still in the golf equipment business. They had a ball called the PLUS 6 whih had hexigon dimples and was supposed to be better than the Titleist. They designed a machine with a block of steel that moved barely more than an inch, and generated 100+ mph of "clubhead speed," and could hit two balls at once.

It didn't have a grip, a stance, or a swing—per se.

It had a STRAIGHT LINE impact, with a D-Plane. The face was pointing "somewhere," and the path was moving "somewhere."

Both balls flew like a tour player hit them, 250+ yards.

Forget about "impact fix." "bounce," and any book.

The CLUBHEAD has a basically straight path through impact—the bottom of the D-Plane, and the CLUBFACE is pointing somewhere, ala a lie angle tool—the top of the D-Plane.

Both the top and the bottom of these vectors originate at the ball, and the ball travels on this plane—starting about 70-85% of the way toward the clubface "point"—and curving TOWARD and mostly past the path vector.

That's it.

That's all there is.

The rest is just SPEED.

 

[ggsjpc]

Let's try again......

If a golfer "knows" that the ball is going to land 7 yards right of his target when hitting an 8-iron straight towards the target, he could aim/swing left 7 yards to ensure that the ball lands at the target? I presume that he could accomplish the same goal by aiming straight at the target while closing his clubface slightly at address. Why is one method better than the alternative method?

Jeff.

Ok. In this example, you stated a shot that flies straight but 7 yards right. In none of your conversations have you discussed a path/face relationship that would create such an event. Anyhow, a push of 7 yards could be created by aiming parallel left, swinging a straight plane line with the face open your 2.67 degrees(the same amount the down created in the path to the right).

If then, you keep all the alignments as before and close the face(let's say 2.67 degrees relative to the target). If you keep the same angle of attack as above and draw the same plane line as above and return the face 2.67 degrees closed to the target, you will get a nasty pull hook.

If you keep all the above path and aim alignments the same and return the face square to the target, now you would get a shot that starts mostly straight and draws more left than you would think. This is because the face is 2.67 degrees closed from the path.

"Hang on a second!

If the secondary path of the head is 2.67 degrees right of the target at impact, where is clubface pointing at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation)? Are you implying that the clubface sweetspot is not oriented in the same direction as the secondary path of the clubhead?"

This question here is answered by rereading above. In order to actually hit the ball straight (at the target) the direction of the swing would need to be 2.67 degrees left of target and the face would be square to the target(the direction of the strike) at separation/impact (virtually the same).

In other words, yes to hit a ball straight at the target, the club face is open to the plane line when it impacts the ball.

Adopt a neutral grip and a neutral clubface at low point. That is theoretically how one should ensure that the clubface is neither open or closed when one grips the club. Then adopt an impact fix alignment posture. Is the clubface not slightly open to the target at impact fix. Repeat the impact fix alignment posture experiment, but hold the clubhead at a 5 degree angle to the ground. Is the clubface open or square to the target? Where is the clubface pointing?


This stuff here is all irrelevant. The ball only cares about the strike. It almost seems like you think you know the answer but you're judgement is clouded by the "book"


whoops sorry this came late....had to feed the baby

 

[JeffM]

ggsjpc

You wrote-: "This question here is answered by rereading above. In order to actually hit the ball straight (at the target) the direction of the swing would need to be 2.67 degrees left of target and the face would be square to the target (the direction of the strike) at separation/impact (virtually the same).

In other words, yes to hit a ball straight at the target, the club face is open to the plane line when it impacts the ball."

In your description, if one swings left 2.67 degrees where is the clubhead path pointing at impact, and what is the relationship of the clubface to that path?

Jeff.

 

[welshdentist]

This is correct.

If you have a straight plane line, and a 2.67° inside-out STRIKE, and a square clubface, you'll hit a shot that starts just right of the target and curves far left.



Any damn place you please.




The golfer can, and does, override any so-called "Automatic Alignment" of the clubface—both relative to the plan line, and the TRUE PATH. In fact, they MUST, at times, do just that to hit it straight.




Not trying to be flip here Jeff, but, NONE of what you just said means ANYTHING to this discussion.

You MUST get the following right in your head:

The ball knows NOTHING about the swing. About the grip. About "hinge Action."

About 25 years ago, the Uniroyal company was still in the golf equipment business. They had a ball called the PLUS 6 whih had hexigon dimples and was supposed to be better than the Titleist. They designed a machine with a block of steel that moved barely more than an inch, and generated 100+ mph of "clubhead speed," and could hit two balls at once.

It didn't have a grip, a stance, or a swing—per se.

It had a STRAIGHT LINE impact, with a D-Plane. The face was pointing "somewhere," and the path was moving "somewhere."

Both balls flew like a tour player hit them, 250+ yards.

Forget about "impact fix." "bounce," and any book.

The CLUBHEAD has a basically straight path through impact—the bottom of the D-Plane, and the CLUBFACE is pointing somewhere, ala a lie angle tool—the top of the D-Plane.

Both the top and the bottom of these vectors originate at the ball, and the ball travels on this plane—starting about 70-85% of the way toward the clubface "point"—and curving TOWARD and mostly past the path vector.

That's it.

That's all there is.

The rest is just SPEED.

I get the feeling that may be Manzella gold right there.

I don't know about anyone else but that sums up for me how my golf has come full circle since my injury. It's not about perfect, it's not TGM, one/two/three planes or anything else other that getting a good D-Plane moving as fast as I need it to hit the ball the distance it needs to go to my target.

Thank you Brian, that's awesome.

 

[JeffM]

A general question.

If one swings down at the ball with a plane line that is directed towards the target, that downward attack angle apparently creates an in-to-out clubhead swingpath of "x" degrees".

Is it possible to have a clubface alignment relative to that path that will allow the ball to go straight towards the target without altering the plane line?

Is there a 3-D graphical representation of the D-plane showing all possible combinations of path and clubface alignments, and their affect on ball flight?

Jeff.

 

[ggsjpc]

ggsjpc

You wrote-: "This question here is answered by rereading above. In order to actually hit the ball straight (at the target) the direction of the swing would need to be 2.67 degrees left of target and the face would be square to the target (the direction of the strike) at separation/impact (virtually the same).

In other words, yes to hit a ball straight at the target, the club face is open to the plane line when it impacts the ball."

In your description, if one swings left 2.67 degrees where is the clubhead path pointing at impact, and what is the relationship of the clubface to that path?

Jeff.

I should have been more clear. If the plane line is 2.67 degrees left, the true path would be tangent to the target and clubface would also be at the target.

 

[ggsjpc]

A general question.

If one swings down at the ball with a plane line that is directed towards the target, that downward attack angle apparently creates an in-to-out clubhead swingpath of "x" degrees".

Is it possible to have a clubface alignment relative to that path that will allow the ball to go straight towards the target without altering the plane line?
Is there a 3-D graphical representation of the D-plane showing all possible combinations of path and clubface alignments, and their affect on ball flight?

Jeff.

No to the bold question unless the ball is mishit. If it is hit solid on the sweetspot, than no.

There is no 3d graphical showing all combinations. That would be nearly infinite. You can get a copy of the Physics of Golf or Science and Golf papers from meeting III and IV. Brian and Mandrin have posted posted some nice 3d images of a single shot.

 

[JeffM]

ggsjpc

As a general question - what are all the possible combinations of plane line, clubhead path and clubface alignment that will produce a straight ball flight?

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

ggsjpc

You wrote-: "I should have been more clear. If the plane line is 2.67 degrees left, the true path would be tangent to the target and clubface would also be at the target."

Could you please be very specific? If the plane line is 2.67 degrees of the target, where exactly is the true path and where exactly is the clubface pointing?

Jeff.

 

[holeout]

ggsjpc

You wrote-: "I should have been more clear. If the plane line is 2.67 degrees left, the true path would be tangent to the target and clubface would also be at the target."

Could you please be very specific? If the plane line is 2.67 degrees of the target, where exactly is the true path and where exactly is the clubface pointing?

Jeff.

Jeff,

The true path of the club head is determined by 3 things: lie angle of the club, downward strike, and plane line. In Brian's example, hitting an 8-iron with a 60º lie angle 4º downward with a 2.24º left plane line would produce a 0º (dead straight) club path. All of these measurements are relative to the target. They have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CLUBFACE. You could start the swing with the clubface aimed 14º right or 8º left; as long as AT IMPACT the clubface was looking at the target with the previously mentioned numbers regarding lie angle, downward strike, and plane line, you get a straight shot. If the clubface is looking anywhere else, the ball won't go straight.

Got it?