Matt Bryda
New
swing line
its the gutter on the roof of a house extending in both directions to infinity
its the gutter on the roof of a house extending in both directions to infinity
Aiming left/swinging left...MANZELLA STRIKES YET AGAIN!
- Thread starter JeffM
- Start date
- Status
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Thank you Detonum!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
is all the above dependent on your lie angles of your clubs being correct? Also
(The ball will start ~70-85% of the way to the TRUE CLUBFACE, and then curve—UP THE PLANE, toward the TRUE CLUBFACE). is this correct ?
Definately dependent on properly fit clubs. The second part can also read "curve away from the path"
Holeout - you wrote-: ""Swing left" in this case means that your "swing line" (Manzella term)/ "plane line" (TGM term) should be aimed 5.88 yards left of target. Simple as that."
It doesn't seem as simple as that to me and it still doesn't make sense to me.
I can understand that one would need to shift the plane line left by 2.67 degrees to counteract the fact that the clubhead is moving down-and-out by 2.67 degrees - if the clubface was directed in exactly the same direction as the clubshaft hosel (like a tennis racket). However, the clubface has a hook-face alignment relative to the front of the hosel, and if one swings the front of the hosel 2.67 degrees down-and-out (relative to the direction of any selected plane line), it doesn't mean that the clubface is also directed 2.67 degrees right of the selected plane line.
Jeff.
It doesn't seem as simple as that to me and it still doesn't make sense to me.
I can understand that one would need to shift the plane line left by 2.67 degrees to counteract the fact that the clubhead is moving down-and-out by 2.67 degrees - if the clubface was directed in exactly the same direction as the clubshaft hosel (like a tennis racket). However, the clubface has a hook-face alignment relative to the front of the hosel, and if one swings the front of the hosel 2.67 degrees down-and-out (relative to the direction of any selected plane line), it doesn't mean that the clubface is also directed 2.67 degrees right of the selected plane line.
Jeff.
In this diagram, the clubhead path is directed straight towards the target at impact when the plane line has been shifted to the left. The presumption is that the clubface and the clubhead are moving in exactly the same direction, which will result in a straight ball flight towards the target. Now that may apply to a tennis racket where the clubface is aligned in exactly the same direction as the clubhead, but I cannot understand how it applies to a hook-faced golf club - as seen in the following photo.
In this photo, the magnetic club lie tool (which is vertical to the clubface) is pointing leftwards. The amount that it points leftwards depends on how that club is held relative to the ground. The degree of leftward clubface alignment will be decreased if the clubshaft is steepened slightly (heel higher than the toe) and increased if the clubshaft is shallowed slightly (heel lower than the toe).
Jeff.
Dude, who said ANYTHING about the clubshaft hosel? To get a little "golfing machine" on you, the plane line is traced through the sweet spot, not through the hosel.
The clubshaft is a nice reference point, since it's easy to see, but the TRUE "swing line" or "plane line" is "traced/drawn" not by the clubshaft down through the hosel, but from the hands (generally speaking; specifically in TGM terms, from the #3 pressure point) through the sweet spot of the club.
curtisj76
New
Is this Manzella approved? If so, it's going on my desktop background and I'm going to study it like crazy. This just might take me out of "golf dummy world".
detonum
New
JeffMann,
I don't see how the face couldn't be square to the target even with a hook faced club. If one had a hook faced tennis racket, one would just rotate hands to square the racket.
Also about the lie angle. The diagram that I made ofcourse presumes that the lie angle is correct for a straight shot. Steepening and flattening the clubshaft angle (or changing the angle of the plane) also changes the amount you have to aim the plane line to left. With a vertical plane angle, you could play a straight shot with a plane line parallel to the target line, no matter how much you hit down or up.
I don't see how the face couldn't be square to the target even with a hook faced club. If one had a hook faced tennis racket, one would just rotate hands to square the racket.
Also about the lie angle. The diagram that I made ofcourse presumes that the lie angle is correct for a straight shot. Steepening and flattening the clubshaft angle (or changing the angle of the plane) also changes the amount you have to aim the plane line to left. With a vertical plane angle, you could play a straight shot with a plane line parallel to the target line, no matter how much you hit down or up.
Detonum
You wrote-: "I don't see how the face couldn't be square to the target even with a hook faced club."
That's my problem - it isn't clear to me that the clubface will be square to the target just because the clubhead is square to the target.
Here is an experiment for you - place a golf ball on a 30-45 degree grass upslope (side-hill lie). Using an eight iron, swing the clubhead towards a distance target (ensuring that the back of the left hand faces the target at impact) and see where the ball goes. Then repeat the experiment on a 30 degree downslope with the ball below your feet, and ensure that the back of the left hand faces the target at impact. See where the ball goes.
According to your expectations - if the clubface was really square to the target when the clubhead is square to the target at impact, then the ball should go straight towards the target in both situations.
You wrote-: "With a vertical plane angle, you could play a straight shot with a plane line parallel to the target line, no matter how much you hit down or up."
When you state "vertical plane angle" are you implying that the clubshaft will be moving along a plane that is vertical to the ground throughout the downswing and moving like a ferris-wheel, and are you thereby implying that the clubface will be facing the target at impact if the clubshaft is near-vertical to the ground at impact?
Jeff.
You wrote-: "I don't see how the face couldn't be square to the target even with a hook faced club."
That's my problem - it isn't clear to me that the clubface will be square to the target just because the clubhead is square to the target.
Here is an experiment for you - place a golf ball on a 30-45 degree grass upslope (side-hill lie). Using an eight iron, swing the clubhead towards a distance target (ensuring that the back of the left hand faces the target at impact) and see where the ball goes. Then repeat the experiment on a 30 degree downslope with the ball below your feet, and ensure that the back of the left hand faces the target at impact. See where the ball goes.
According to your expectations - if the clubface was really square to the target when the clubhead is square to the target at impact, then the ball should go straight towards the target in both situations.
You wrote-: "With a vertical plane angle, you could play a straight shot with a plane line parallel to the target line, no matter how much you hit down or up."
When you state "vertical plane angle" are you implying that the clubshaft will be moving along a plane that is vertical to the ground throughout the downswing and moving like a ferris-wheel, and are you thereby implying that the clubface will be facing the target at impact if the clubshaft is near-vertical to the ground at impact?
Jeff.
Last edited:
detonum
New
You are correct, but as I said, I was presuming that the lie angle was correct for a straight shot (which it isnt when the ball is lower or higher than your feet), and it wasnt really the point of the diagram. The diagram just points out that the plane line must point left, if you want to hit it straight while hitting it down.
I should have added that the clubhead path vector should also point in the same direction (in horizontal space) as the true clubface vector (another arrow on top of the blue one)
Basically the true clubface (in manzella terms, meaning pretty much the vector from a magnetic lie angle tool) must point at the target in horizontal space at impact.
ggsjpc
New
Jeff,
I don't think anyone has arguments with what you are saying. All of earlier discussions have included some assumptions that if are not true would change the relationships as you have suggested. Assumptions of level lie angle at impact and level turf are two of these assumptions. Solid impact would be another. You are correct in that slope and improper fitting would cause changes to be made but does it make more sense with some of these assumptions exposed?
I don't think anyone has arguments with what you are saying. All of earlier discussions have included some assumptions that if are not true would change the relationships as you have suggested. Assumptions of level lie angle at impact and level turf are two of these assumptions. Solid impact would be another. You are correct in that slope and improper fitting would cause changes to be made but does it make more sense with some of these assumptions exposed?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
And that's a fact, Jack.
Well, actually, that's just one example for a golf who hits the ball a SPECIFIC DISTANCE with a SPECIFIC amount of DOWNWARD STRIKE.
In this case a 150 yard shot, with exactly 4° downward.
Our own Kevin Shields hits his 8-iron farther with more down.
That would make his SWING LINE/PLANE LINE even further left.
But, you continue....
You ever see one of those "swing Ring" things, like this:
I know you have, and I know you know what a"plane Line" is, but I don't mind you playing dumb either, since, maybe, just maybe, you'll realize how far I always am ahead of the pack.
Well, anyhoo, Jeff, the PLANE LINE NEEDS TO BE LEFT 7 yards, or 2.67° at 150 in my previous example.
That's what happens when you stay on plane.
Of course, you know that too.
It doesn't have to do ANY swiveling.
It could be "square to the path" already.
You SHOULD know that too.
Well, that's because the ball couldn't care a damn about any accumulators.
But let's assume that the clubface will be square at some point on the path.
To be exact, I am talking about the sweetspot.
The ball doesn't care a LICK about any damn hosels either.
No.
There is a DAMN THING automatic about the clubface squaring up.
And, please, pretty please, get the darn "hookface" thing out of your coconut, the ball doesn't care about that either.
For your own golf knowledge's sake, please understand this:
I can have the clubface square to the target, and the "TRUE CLUBFACE" pointing 3D on the vertical "Flag Line" at ANY POINT at the near bottom of the swing.
All I need is the correct lie angle.
The face that you don't know that is scary.
Dude, If I sent that quote of yours to Tom Wishon, Paul Wood, and Aaron Zick, they may pee on themselves.
There is no such Leftward POINT, and even if there was, the clubface can still be square at any point.
Whew!
Now we're getting somewhere!
The answer to your above statement is ABSOLUTELY NO FRIGGIN' WAY.
It would be nice, that would make The Golfing Machine's mistake about plane line vs. path way lessened, but there is NOTHING that will make the ball go straight if the path is in-to-out and the hit is on the sweetspot.
Now, a toe hit, is something different, and beyond the scope of this post.
No, its that hosel thing, and the clubhead thing attached to it, at the end of that shaft thingy.
Jeff, you just found out that you THOUGHT YOU KNEW SOMETHING and you didn't.
It happens to me all the time.
You'll learn so much more around here if you just listen and ask good questions then you will anywhere else it isn't even funny.
Just open you mind to the fact that a little Italian man from Chalmette knows more than his critics claim, hope, wish, or believe.
And that's a fact, Jack.
I mean Jeff.
Well, actually, that's just one example for a golf who hits the ball a SPECIFIC DISTANCE with a SPECIFIC amount of DOWNWARD STRIKE.
In this case a 150 yard shot, with exactly 4° downward.
Our own Kevin Shields hits his 8-iron farther with more down.
That would make his SWING LINE/PLANE LINE even further left.
But, you continue....
You ever see one of those "swing Ring" things, like this:
I know you have, and I know you know what a"plane Line" is, but I don't mind you playing dumb either, since, maybe, just maybe, you'll realize how far I always am ahead of the pack.
Well, anyhoo, Jeff, the PLANE LINE NEEDS TO BE LEFT 7 yards, or 2.67° at 150 in my previous example.
That's what happens when you stay on plane.
Of course, you know that too.
It doesn't have to do ANY swiveling.
It could be "square to the path" already.
You SHOULD know that too.
Well, that's because the ball couldn't care a damn about any accumulators.
But let's assume that the clubface will be square at some point on the path.
To be exact, I am talking about the sweetspot.
The ball doesn't care a LICK about any damn hosels either.
No.
There is a DAMN THING automatic about the clubface squaring up.
And, please, pretty please, get the darn "hookface" thing out of your coconut, the ball doesn't care about that either.
For your own golf knowledge's sake, please understand this:
I can have the clubface square to the target, and the "TRUE CLUBFACE" pointing 3D on the vertical "Flag Line" at ANY POINT at the near bottom of the swing.
All I need is the correct lie angle.
The face that you don't know that is scary.
Dude, If I sent that quote of yours to Tom Wishon, Paul Wood, and Aaron Zick, they may pee on themselves.
There is no such Leftward POINT, and even if there was, the clubface can still be square at any point.
Whew!
Now we're getting somewhere!
The answer to your above statement is ABSOLUTELY NO FRIGGIN' WAY.
It would be nice, that would make The Golfing Machine's mistake about plane line vs. path way lessened, but there is NOTHING that will make the ball go straight if the path is in-to-out and the hit is on the sweetspot.
Now, a toe hit, is something different, and beyond the scope of this post.
No, its that hosel thing, and the clubhead thing attached to it, at the end of that shaft thingy.
Jeff, you just found out that you THOUGHT YOU KNEW SOMETHING and you didn't.
It happens to me all the time.
You'll learn so much more around here if you just listen and ask good questions then you will anywhere else it isn't even funny.
Just open you mind to the fact that a little Italian man from Chalmette knows more than his critics claim, hope, wish, or believe.
And that's a fact, Jack.
I mean Jeff.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Holy, holy, holy!
It can be ANYWHERE YOU WANT OT TO BE, including 180° open.
It's called LIE ANGLE, dude.
That'll do it.
That'll do it too.
Yup.
Just imagine how much MONEY I am saving this man.....
It can be ANYWHERE YOU WANT OT TO BE, including 180° open.
It's called LIE ANGLE, dude.
That'll do it.
That'll do it too.
Yup.
Just imagine how much MONEY I am saving this man.....
ssssc
New
Brian - I have delayed replying to your posts because I needed to prepare a number of photo images to support my opinions.
I find your aiming left/swinging left ideology very unconvincing.
You wrote-: "Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°." What do you mean by hitting down at 4 degrees? Are you implying that the clubface is moving down 4 degrees while it remains in contact with the ball? Are you thereby implying that the clubface must also therefore be moving out 2.67 degrees while it remains in contact with the ball?
In your description, you state that "With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.66° out for every one degree down". I can accept that fact. However, you seem to be implying that the clubface is moving down-and-out to exactly the same degree as the clubhead, which I believe is untrue for a swinger. That "clubface square to the clubhead arc" situation may apply to a hitter who drive loads the club and employs angled hinging. Under those conditions, there is no release swivel action and the clubface may remain neutral to the clubhead arc throughout the impact zone. However, most golfers are swingers and a swinger usually employs a release swivel action (during the late downswing) and a horizontal hinging action (in the followthrough). That means that the clubface is continuously rotating while the club is moving down-and-out through the impact zone. You have not taken that "fact" into consideration in your calculations.
A swinger usually has the back of his flat left wrist, and therefore clubface, parallel to the inclined plane during the mid-downswing - from the top of the backswing to the 3rd parallel. Under those conditions, the clubshaft hosel and clubface sweetspot are on the same inclined plane. After the club passes the 3rd parallel, the club rotates so that the sweetspot rotates to the base of the sweetspot plane by impact while the clubshaft hosel lies at the base of the clubshaft plane at impact.
Here is a photo showing Aaron Baddeley's release swivel action.
The release swivel action is happening between position 1 and position 2. During the release swivel action, two phenomena are happening - i) the clubshaft/clubhead is moving down-and-out and forwards (primarily due to the release of PA#2) and ii) the clubface is rotating (due to release of PA#3). At the 3rd parallel, the back of Badds' flat left wrist/hand (and therefore clubface) is facing the ball-target line and at impact it is facing the target. That represents approximately a 90 degree rotation of the clubface during the release swivel phase of the swing and it is biomechanically due to external rotation of the left humeral head in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder socket is in motion) coupled with a small degree of left forearm supinatory movement. At impact, the back of the flat left wrist/hand is facing the target and so is the clubface. However, impact is not a static position and the clubface continues to rotate before, during, and after impact due to continued external rotation of the left humeral head in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder is moving forwards and up and inside). You can see the clubface closing between position 2 and position 3 in the above photo. There is no "moment in time" when the left humeral head is not externally rotating in the left shoulder socket while the clubhead is moving through the impact zone, and that means that the clubface is always closing. The clubface will close relative to the clubhead arc if the amount of left humeral external rotation per unit time increases - and that is what happens in horizontal hinging (relative to angled hinging). The following diagram demonstrates the clubface closing phenomenon that happens automatically/naturally in a swinger's action.
This diagram demonstrates that the clubface is closing continuously during the release swivel phase of the downswing and the horizontal hinging action phase of the followthrough. Above the 3rd parallel, the clubface is open to the clubhead swingarc (because it is parallel to the inclined plane). From that mid-downswing position, the clubface has to rotate in order to become square by impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation). That means that the clubface is closing - relative to the clubhead swingarc. This clubface closing phenomenon (relative to the clubhead arc) has to continue in the followthrough if a golfer employs a horizontal hinging action. In other words, there is no time point in the late downswing/followthrough when the clubface is not closing (relative to the clubhead arc) in a swinger's swing action - if a swinger uses a horizontal hinging action. You have not taken that "fact" into account in your aim left/swing left explanation.
Another important point is that the degree of closing of the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc) that occurs during the release swivel phase of the downswing doesn't happen at an uniform rate between the 3rd parallel and impact. In a swinger's action, release of PA#2 must precede the release of PA#3 and there is a variable degree of overlap between the two phenomena.
Here is a photo-series (derived from the famous Nike swing video commercial) that clearly demonstrates Tiger Woods release swivel action.
One can see that the left wrist/hand rotation (and therefore clubface rotation) mainly ocurs between image 3 and image 4 and it is primarily due to a left forearm supinatory movement that closes the clubface so that it can become square by impact. You have not included this clubface roll-action "fact" (due to the release of PA#3) in your explanation of the precise direction of movement of the clubface through the impact zone.
I believe that it is easy for a skilled golfer to hit the ball straight without aiming left/swinging left. My brother, Howard, has a handicap of 1.3 and he routinely hits his 260-280 yard drives straight down the middle of the fairway, and he hits his 8-iron straight towards the flag. His ball flight is straight and he doesn't draw/fade the ball. How does he hit the ball straight if he doesn't aim left/swing left? The answer is simple - he skillfully rotates the left flat left wrist/hand during the late downswing (during the release swivel phase of the swing) so that the club is in its "optimum" position at impact. What do I mean by "optimum" position?
The following photo shows the club's optimum position at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation).
At impact, the clubface should be facing the target (red line) in order for the ball to go straight. The red line represents the ball-target line, also the desired ball flight line for a straight ball flight, and also the base of the sweetspot plane.
To get to the clubface to be facing the target at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation) the clubshaft must be correctly angled from two perspectives. The clubshaft must be correctly angled (relative to the DTL clubshaft's inclined plane) so that the sole of the club is flat (from a toe-to-heel perspective). The clubshaft must also have the correct amount of forward shaft lean so that the sole of the club is flat from a back-to-front perspective - the leading edge and back edge of the club must be flush to the ground (presuming a zero bounce angle). Under those optimized conditions, the sweetspot of the clubface will be facing the target and the ball will go straight.
I believe that a skilled golfer must learn to swing his club so that he can generate an in-to-square-to in clubhead arc through impact where the clubhead arc is perfectly symmetrically-square to the ball-target line, and he can learn how to accomplish that goal by learning clubshaft control - how to trace a straight plane line. A skilled golfer also needs to learn how to control the clubface so that it becomes square to the ball-target line at impact, and I believe that it is the left hand (through its rotary movement) that allows the golfer to ensure that the clubface is square at impact - without having to aim left/swing left.
Jeff.
I find your aiming left/swinging left ideology very unconvincing.
You wrote-: "Lets say you hit down 4° at 60° with a 8-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~2.67°." What do you mean by hitting down at 4 degrees? Are you implying that the clubface is moving down 4 degrees while it remains in contact with the ball? Are you thereby implying that the clubface must also therefore be moving out 2.67 degrees while it remains in contact with the ball?
In your description, you state that "With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.66° out for every one degree down". I can accept that fact. However, you seem to be implying that the clubface is moving down-and-out to exactly the same degree as the clubhead, which I believe is untrue for a swinger. That "clubface square to the clubhead arc" situation may apply to a hitter who drive loads the club and employs angled hinging. Under those conditions, there is no release swivel action and the clubface may remain neutral to the clubhead arc throughout the impact zone. However, most golfers are swingers and a swinger usually employs a release swivel action (during the late downswing) and a horizontal hinging action (in the followthrough). That means that the clubface is continuously rotating while the club is moving down-and-out through the impact zone. You have not taken that "fact" into consideration in your calculations.
A swinger usually has the back of his flat left wrist, and therefore clubface, parallel to the inclined plane during the mid-downswing - from the top of the backswing to the 3rd parallel. Under those conditions, the clubshaft hosel and clubface sweetspot are on the same inclined plane. After the club passes the 3rd parallel, the club rotates so that the sweetspot rotates to the base of the sweetspot plane by impact while the clubshaft hosel lies at the base of the clubshaft plane at impact.
Here is a photo showing Aaron Baddeley's release swivel action.
The release swivel action is happening between position 1 and position 2. During the release swivel action, two phenomena are happening - i) the clubshaft/clubhead is moving down-and-out and forwards (primarily due to the release of PA#2) and ii) the clubface is rotating (due to release of PA#3). At the 3rd parallel, the back of Badds' flat left wrist/hand (and therefore clubface) is facing the ball-target line and at impact it is facing the target. That represents approximately a 90 degree rotation of the clubface during the release swivel phase of the swing and it is biomechanically due to external rotation of the left humeral head in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder socket is in motion) coupled with a small degree of left forearm supinatory movement. At impact, the back of the flat left wrist/hand is facing the target and so is the clubface. However, impact is not a static position and the clubface continues to rotate before, during, and after impact due to continued external rotation of the left humeral head in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder is moving forwards and up and inside). You can see the clubface closing between position 2 and position 3 in the above photo. There is no "moment in time" when the left humeral head is not externally rotating in the left shoulder socket while the clubhead is moving through the impact zone, and that means that the clubface is always closing. The clubface will close relative to the clubhead arc if the amount of left humeral external rotation per unit time increases - and that is what happens in horizontal hinging (relative to angled hinging). The following diagram demonstrates the clubface closing phenomenon that happens automatically/naturally in a swinger's action.
This diagram demonstrates that the clubface is closing continuously during the release swivel phase of the downswing and the horizontal hinging action phase of the followthrough. Above the 3rd parallel, the clubface is open to the clubhead swingarc (because it is parallel to the inclined plane). From that mid-downswing position, the clubface has to rotate in order to become square by impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation). That means that the clubface is closing - relative to the clubhead swingarc. This clubface closing phenomenon (relative to the clubhead arc) has to continue in the followthrough if a golfer employs a horizontal hinging action. In other words, there is no time point in the late downswing/followthrough when the clubface is not closing (relative to the clubhead arc) in a swinger's swing action - if a swinger uses a horizontal hinging action. You have not taken that "fact" into account in your aim left/swing left explanation.
Another important point is that the degree of closing of the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc) that occurs during the release swivel phase of the downswing doesn't happen at an uniform rate between the 3rd parallel and impact. In a swinger's action, release of PA#2 must precede the release of PA#3 and there is a variable degree of overlap between the two phenomena.
Here is a photo-series (derived from the famous Nike swing video commercial) that clearly demonstrates Tiger Woods release swivel action.
One can see that the left wrist/hand rotation (and therefore clubface rotation) mainly ocurs between image 3 and image 4 and it is primarily due to a left forearm supinatory movement that closes the clubface so that it can become square by impact. You have not included this clubface roll-action "fact" (due to the release of PA#3) in your explanation of the precise direction of movement of the clubface through the impact zone.
I believe that it is easy for a skilled golfer to hit the ball straight without aiming left/swinging left. My brother, Howard, has a handicap of 1.3 and he routinely hits his 260-280 yard drives straight down the middle of the fairway, and he hits his 8-iron straight towards the flag. His ball flight is straight and he doesn't draw/fade the ball. How does he hit the ball straight if he doesn't aim left/swing left? The answer is simple - he skillfully rotates the left flat left wrist/hand during the late downswing (during the release swivel phase of the swing) so that the club is in its "optimum" position at impact. What do I mean by "optimum" position?
The following photo shows the club's optimum position at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation).
At impact, the clubface should be facing the target (red line) in order for the ball to go straight. The red line represents the ball-target line, also the desired ball flight line for a straight ball flight, and also the base of the sweetspot plane.
To get to the clubface to be facing the target at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation) the clubshaft must be correctly angled from two perspectives. The clubshaft must be correctly angled (relative to the DTL clubshaft's inclined plane) so that the sole of the club is flat (from a toe-to-heel perspective). The clubshaft must also have the correct amount of forward shaft lean so that the sole of the club is flat from a back-to-front perspective - the leading edge and back edge of the club must be flush to the ground (presuming a zero bounce angle). Under those optimized conditions, the sweetspot of the clubface will be facing the target and the ball will go straight.
I believe that a skilled golfer must learn to swing his club so that he can generate an in-to-square-to in clubhead arc through impact where the clubhead arc is perfectly symmetrically-square to the ball-target line, and he can learn how to accomplish that goal by learning clubshaft control - how to trace a straight plane line. A skilled golfer also needs to learn how to control the clubface so that it becomes square to the ball-target line at impact, and I believe that it is the left hand (through its rotary movement) that allows the golfer to ensure that the clubface is square at impact - without having to aim left/swing left.
Jeff.
I'll let Brian answer to you, but cannot resist asking this:
I have no problem accepting that your brother does not aim left, but how do you know that he's not in fact "swinging left" when he hits a straight shot. How have you measured it?
And btw. if he's not hitting down with driver, he would not be swinging left for a straight shot then. Wouldn't a person hitting his/her driver up have to be swinging right in fact to be able to hit it straight to target.
The following photo shows the club's optimum position at impact (actually at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation).
Do you really think that the club looks like that when it strikes a ball? What about this:
Oh, and can you please provide Trackman readings or some other type of numerical data supporting your claims.
detonum
New
Jeff,
Clubface rotation really has no part in swinging left..The clubface just needs to be square at seperation, no matter how little or how much rotation happens (I think Brian debunked true horizontal hinging in some of his posts - the club doesn't rotate as much during impact, very little actually, which is why you shouldn't really hit the inside of the ball.)
And in my opinion swinging left is propably something alot of people don't have to think about to hit a straight shot. When a skilled golfer wants to hit a straight shot that has a very descending blow, his subconcious automatically makes him swing left, so that the clubhead path is parallel to the target line at impact.
And I also second jake2 - you would have to get your brother on a Trackman to prove your point.
Clubface rotation really has no part in swinging left..The clubface just needs to be square at seperation, no matter how little or how much rotation happens (I think Brian debunked true horizontal hinging in some of his posts - the club doesn't rotate as much during impact, very little actually, which is why you shouldn't really hit the inside of the ball.)
And in my opinion swinging left is propably something alot of people don't have to think about to hit a straight shot. When a skilled golfer wants to hit a straight shot that has a very descending blow, his subconcious automatically makes him swing left, so that the clubhead path is parallel to the target line at impact.
And I also second jake2 - you would have to get your brother on a Trackman to prove your point.
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