All you picture looking golf swing THEORISTS...come in to my office...:)

Status
Not open for further replies.

TeeAce

New member
Great thread Brian, had great morning to read it.

The right answer is that only thing you can say about those photos is that he took his glove away. Nothing else!

The change is somewhere much deeper and even nothing changes in video / stills, the ball flight can change a lot. It happens inside of us and can't be seen from outside.
 
You can see differences. No doubt about it. Difficult to see, but they are visible. I've got an inkling about what you told him.
 

TeeAce

New member
You can see differences. No doubt about it. Difficult to see, but they are visible. I've got an inkling about what you told him.

Yes and I saw them also. For example that they are not from the same moment.

I use maybe most accurate device in the world to measure players, and after certain level, we can't see any changes in players swing, even when they feel they are doing totally different moves and the ball flights differently. It's impossible to see inside of their skin or head. Some sensors in muscles can show different action, but not videos or stills, or not even 3Dmodel systems.

Sometimes they even show some differences which are not visible in photos, but still ball flights the same. Thats the way to play the game.
 
Interesting point Tee.

What kind of units are we talking about in terms of face and path to differentiate between a straight shot and a 20 metre hook with a 6-iron? Millimetres?
 

TeeAce

New member
Interesting point Tee.

What kind of units are we talking about in terms of face and path to differentiate between a straight shot and a 20 metre hook with a 6-iron? Millimetres?

Absolutely millimeters, and not even many of them. If you measure the club head of 6i and you turn it for example 3 or 5 degrees closed, how many millimeters the toe is moving? Then add to change of the path for 3mm...
 
wulsy

You can see differences. No doubt about it. Difficult to see, but they are visible. I've got an inkling about what you told him.

what did you see then?

I noticed
Top row photos - the golfer is more heels up like Mike Jacobs mentioned recently
and a crease in the right toes area of the shoe and probably an effect of something else

but still only a guess

and after the fact
so what!
 
Absolutely millimeters, and not even many of them. If you measure the club head of 6i and you turn it for example 3 or 5 degrees closed, how many millimeters the toe is moving? Then add to change of the path for 3mm...

Yup, this is definitely a game for masochists...
 
You can detect the following IMO:

he has "tugged less" ie "slacked more"
he has rotated the face less through impact
he has come less from the inside with less shaft lean
he has slowed the pivot more.

That is all visible.
 
Dammit I was going to say toss.

Picture 2 of the after sequence.

His legs looks better in the bottom pictures (this is what Matt's saying too?).

You can also see that the hands are more 'up' in the after picture. From "going normal" I presume?
 
The second row of pictures shows a better right elbow/forearm release. If you told him to straighten his right arm sooner and more completely then you told him what I would have told him. And if you got him to do it by telling him to do the basketball free throw toss you spoke of in your new release video then you did a good job. Chuck Cook told me that Butch Harmon simply told Tiger to straighten his right arm earlier to help his pivot problem. I also heard he told him to keep his right heel down longer during the downswing. Claude Harmon I'm sure told Butch that " if you spin you don't win._Whatever you told him, you made him have a better right arm release in the bottom pictures. Thats my story and I'm sticking with it.
 
I've been meaning to ask this and now, with this thread, it seems like the perfect time.

Given the new information gathered, what is the current role of video on the lesson tee?

Assuming that our camera setup is correct, what benefit would the recreational golfer gain from taking video of his own swing?
 

ZAP

New
Sounds a little like my lesson. I have a few guesses. Admittedly I had nothing looking at the pics. I only thought the glove pics were after because I remember putting my glove on after about 45 minutes.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Did you say anything that had "sky" and "belly" in it?

Never talked about the sky, but we did talk about his belly.

The change is somewhere much deeper and even nothing changes in video / stills, the ball flight can change a lot. It happens inside of us and can't be seen from outside.

TrackMan saw all of it.

Stand up a little taller and quit taking a divot.

Never told him a thing about his posture, per se.

The divot was a result, but we got some next-to--zero divot 5.5° downs on the last few balls of of the ground. The divot can tell you something, but is NOT an angle of attack indicator.

Sometimes they even show some differences which are not visible in photos, but still ball flights the same. Thats the way to play the game.

You need a TrackMan

he has "tugged less" ie "slacked more"
he has rotated the face less through impact
he has come less from the inside with less shaft lean
he has slowed the pivot more.

Never said a THING about slack to him—although he might be tugged less.
The face was RESULT of going normal correctly.
The less inside was due to the reward being removed for the inside-out swing.
He was trying to use his pivot more—just differently.

Dammit I was going to say toss.

I told him about a through the ball toss, not an out toss at ALL, an only mentioned it once or twice.

I'm dealing with a player here, you see.

Picture 2 of the after sequence.

His legs looks better in the bottom pictures (this is what Matt's saying too?).

His legs only look better, because you are looking for the wrong things. :) No offense.

You can also see that the hands are more 'up' in the after picture. From "going normal" I presume?

Why not?

The second row of pictures shows a better right elbow/forearm release. If you told him to straighten his right arm sooner and more completely then you told him what I would have told him. And if you got him to do it by telling him to do the basketball free throw toss you spoke of in your new release video then you did a good job. Chuck Cook told me that Butch Harmon simply told Tiger to straighten his right arm earlier to help his pivot problem. I also heard he told him to keep his right heel down longer during the downswing. Claude Harmon I'm sure told Butch that " if you spin you don't win._Whatever you told him, you made him have a better right arm release in the bottom pictures. Thats my story and I'm sticking with it.

Coop,

The top is the after.

I never said a thing about the out-toss in the lesson.

I now like right arms that don't straighten through impact.

Funny, David never straightened his.
 
gisele-bundchen-would-not-approve-of-this-little-number.jpg


I'd be willing to bet this slightly used jelly donut, that no one here (at least those of us not doing it for a living) would be able to spot any changes in these two swings if they weren't so clearly "setup" as before/after swings. I'm the most ill-equiped member here to be talking about swing stuff, but these two sets of images look like they are within the "margin of error" that occurs from swing-to-swing on a good player. No one (that we've never heard of) repeats their move exactly, and these look like a good player making good looking swings - both sets.

If these images were posted in passing, I'd say none of this detailed guessing would be going on because the visual difference are negligable on a swing-to-swing basis - further illustrating the main point of our host. I believe we were thrown a bone so we all don't feel like... :)
 
In addition to the original purpose if this thread...

This one should be stickied for all those who come to this site for swing advice. So they know who they should be taking advice from and the importance of taking a live lesson with an instructor who knows what he/she is doing. Again no offense to you non-golf teachers.
 
Last edited:

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The original purpose of the thread.......

You can't determine the Angle of Attack or the PATH or the CLUBFACE or a whole bunch of other things BY LOOKING AT VIDEO.

It gets even dicier looking at max trigger delay golfers.

Designing a lesson plan, or heaven forbid—a teaching theory! looking at video is goofy at best, and so early 90's if you are lucky.

It may produce golfers who LOOK "good" on video and on the the range, but can't golf their ball and get waxed so-called flippers in tournaments.

It is 2011.

We have DOPPLER RADAR!

And access to real science.
 

hue

New
Brian, I thought you were going write some thing like that. Once you have settled on a pattern that resembles what you are aiming at is that when you start tweaking with trackman using balistic science or do you use it in all lessons? Presumably once you have a good player where you want him you can do ballistic tests with different balls and advise which ones to use.
 

TeeAce

New member
The original purpose of the thread.......

You can't determine the Angle of Attack or the PATH or the CLUBFACE or a whole bunch of other things BY LOOKING AT VIDEO.

It gets even dicier looking at max trigger delay golfers.

Designing a lesson plan, or heaven forbid—a teaching theory! looking at video is goofy at best, and so early 90's if you are lucky.

It may produce golfers who LOOK "good" on video and on the the range, but can't golf their ball and get waxed so-called flippers in tournaments.

It is 2011.

We have DOPPLER RADAR!

And access to real science.

Did I win something being right? :D :D

Brian: I already got Flightscope and 4DSwing. I think that's good enough ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top