Austin Talk

[Jono]

Jono

Yes it is a bit open, like it should be, 3 to 4 degrees and square at separation. I would bet your Speed Chain or Torso Burner, your house, not pets, that you use your hands way too much, to soon. Learning the correct pivot. Trust this swing, it will square up right on time. Pivot compels the hunds. Get it, get game. ')

Yep, you are correct. I most definitely use my hands too soon.

Look. I'm not trying to knock the late MA's swing. As Brian says, it looks like a very powerful swing. However, IN THIS SEQUENCE, where he's demontrating the flammer WITHOUT a ball, the clubface (or at least the hands) look way open at impact compared to address. I think someone posted here that MA's spine tilt in this sequence is MORE than what he normally has when he is actually hitting balls. So, my question was, does increasing the spine tilt have the TENDENCY to open the clubface at impact?

Here's a closeup of frames 1 and 8. To me, the clubface in frame 8 HAS to be WAY open compared to the clubface in frame 1. You don't agree?

 

[blehnhard]

Impact Torsion

Due to how clubs are built, there is significant 'torsion' at impact to twist open the club face. The better player resists this torsion by the constant application of pressure against the ball and the effort to continue the 'closing rate' of the clubface. The average player (slicer) does not have or maintain this pressure - hence the clubface might be 3* open at impact and 6* open at separation (hence right to right).

I have noticed on some of the 'SwingVision' shots, the clubface being 'forced' more open thru the impact interval.

Regarding the MA photos, no one knows if he was hitting a fade with this shot.

Bruce

 

[DOCW3]

Yep, you are correct. I most definitely use my hands too soon.

Look. I'm not trying to knock the late MA's swing. As Brian says, it looks like a very powerful swing. However, IN THIS SEQUENCE, where he's demontrating the flammer WITHOUT a ball, the clubface (or at least the hands) look way open at impact compared to address. I think someone posted here that MA's spine tilt in this sequence is MORE than what he normally has when he is actually hitting balls. So, my question was, does increasing the spine tilt have the TENDENCY to open the clubface at impact?

Here's a closeup of frames 1 and 8. To me, the clubface in frame 8 HAS to be WAY open compared to the clubface in frame 1. You don't agree?

I have seen two reports, which at 2000 vintage are probably dated later than the MA sequence, that place right side bending or tilt in the 31 degree range for the PGA tour. What are the benefits or consequenes of the MA position, which appears to be significantly greater? And, are there setup positions that benefit the less skilled player in achieving adequate right side bending at impact.

DRW

 

[Jono]

Jono

Yes it is a bit open, like it should be, 3 to 4 degrees and square at separation.

Rosser,

Frame 8 in the above MA sequence is AFTER separation. (ie. beyond where the ball would have been). And IMO, it's way more than 3 to 4 degrees open.

 

[hcw]

...So am I the only one that thinks that MA's clubface in frame 8 is significantly open relative to frame 1?

...no you are not...and the video clips of him actually hitting balls you can find at the peaceriver site don't show that much axis tilt...granted its with an iron, but still....

-hcw

 

[birdie_man]

This swing is all PIVOT, includes BOTH ways. Backswing and Downswing.

Once you understand the WHOLE COMPLETE PIVOT, You understand the role of the hands and arms. Whole lots of "Axis Tilt" will be there waiting for ya.

Mike Austin Pivoted exactly how Brian explains in his best threads to date, next to this one.

Search Perfect Pivot backswing part 1 and Perfect pivot downswing part 2.

Right out of the MA play book. Learned it from him years ago.

It's one of main reasons, I wanted Brian to do the analysis. It shows the pivot so clearly. Where the power comes from, the body pivot, expels the hands and arms. BM, blew the cover off so all can see , and maybe if pivot learned, one can show case it on the course. ')

It don't get any better than this forum.

Ya I guess that's true tho eh.....if the hands just hold on they can pretty much get to where they need to be anyway.

 

[Biffer]

On the backswing Mike rolls the club open and it appears in this sequence, frame 8, that he has not rolled back to his starting position, so the clubface is definitely open.

 

[rosser]

Close but no cigar

Yep, you are correct. I most definitely use my hands too soon.

Look. I'm not trying to knock the late MA's swing. As Brian says, it looks like a very powerful swing. However, IN THIS SEQUENCE, where he's demontrating the flammer WITHOUT a ball, the clubface (or at least the hands) look way open at impact compared to address. I think someone posted here that MA's spine tilt in this sequence is MORE than what he normally has when he is actually hitting balls. So, my question was, does increasing the spine tilt have the TENDENCY to open the clubface at impact?

Here's a closeup of frames 1 and 8. To me, the clubface in frame 8 HAS to be WAY open compared to the clubface in frame 1. You don't agree?

MA is just illustrating the swing here. he is not hitting a ball as the flammer is to train not to hit balls. MA is indeed showing his swing a bit more exaggerated, no doubt about that. At slow speed with the flammer it will show the club face is open some. At fast speed, normal speed in the flammer it would be more to what you like to see. Still open 3 to 4 degree, and square at separation.

Everything is there in that swing, just don't over analyse it. BM has talked about this swing, listen to what he is saying. Plenty of film on MA doing just what BM say's with a ball on a real course. That's why Brian is the teacher and you guys quit guessing. ')

 

[Jono]

MA is just illustrating the swing here. he is not hitting a ball as the flammer is to train not to hit balls. MA is indeed showing his swing a bit more exaggerated, no doubt about that. At slow speed with the flammer it will show the club face is open some. At fast speed, normal speed in the flammer it would be more to what you like to see. Still open 3 to 4 degree, and square at separation.

Everything is there in that swing, just don't over analyse it. BM has talked about this swing, listen to what he is saying. Plenty of film on MA doing just what BM say's with a ball on a real course. That's why Brian is the teacher and you guys quit guessing. ')

As I said in my first post, I greatly appreciate what Brian has done, and I admire Mike Austin's swing ... very much. I understand that this is just a demonstration swing without a ball using a training device called flammer. However, Brian has chosen to analyse this sequence, probably because of the picture quality. I am just making an observation ... Describing what I see.

Brian mentions in the analysis that MA's grip is strong. If you look at his address position, his grip is not that strong. It LOOKS strong in frame 8 because he left the clubface wide open (way more than 3-4 degrees). Again, I'm not saying that he does that when he hits balls ... Just in this sequence.

So why is the clubface way open in this sequence? Was MA demonstrating how to hit a block fade with the flammer? Probably not.

As some other guys have noticed, MA's spine tilt in this sequence is significantly greater than when he hits the ball. Here is a comparison of the impact spine tilt. On the left you have the flammer swing, middle is an iron swing, and on the right you have the driver swing.

It is clear to see that Mike's spine tilt is greater with the flammer swing.

This raises some interesting questions. Can you have TOO MUCH axis tilt? Dare I say "perverted axis tilt"?

And can excess axis tilt cause the clubface to remain too open at impact?

C'mon, Rosser. Work with me ... What do you think?

 

[cdog]

If your body is to far ahead of your hands, your gonna be open everytime, unless you compensate or manipulate.

 

[armourall]

Jono,

Brian posted an observation recently that the amount of axis tilt and the amount of left shoulder turn away from the ball should match. It's hard to tell here how much MA has his shoulders turned in this demonstration swing, but it doesn't appear to be turned enough to match the tilt. As it was already pointed out, Mike would likely have less tilt in his actual swing, and the angles would match more closely.

Brian, any comments on this?

 

[joeparr]

Someone mentioned that Mike had an opened clubface on the back swing. What confuses me on the hip turn is did he start his hands first or hips or both together . What is the sequence back and forward?,,,joe

 

[hcw]

tilting:some interesting questions

And can excess axis tilt cause the clubface to remain too open at impact?

yes, as was pointed out above, your shoulder turn needs to match your tilt...goto impact fix, tilt and see for yourself...

Can you have TOO MUCH axis tilt? Dare I say "perverted axis tilt"?

extreme/perverted tilt leads to the dreaded reverse pivot and boy will that open up your clubface!

C'mon, Rosser. Work with me ... What do you think?

of course since i'm not rosser (or some other MA initiate) or BM, i'm only "guessing"

-hcw

 

[Doug]

Mike

Someone mentioned that Mike had an opened clubface on the back swing. What confuses me on the hip turn is did he start his hands first or hips or both together . What is the sequence back and forward?,,,joe

Mike did not open the clubface on the backstroke for a normal shot.

He started the swing with a slight forward press with his wrists and took the club back with the face Looking at the ball.

The feeling is straight back, underneath inside, shift, cock, and raise.

His backstroke was inside his downstroke. Picture a pole from your sternum to the ball. He took the club back underneath the pole and came down directley on it. Mike never had the feeling of droping the club coming down.

 

[Perfect Impact]

Yes, Doug, and when he talked about and demonstrated step by step what he did, he did fan or roll his hands (pronate/supinate) in order to get to the top. His downswing was on plane, as you say. His downswing was never a shift of plane but a direct strike.

When he had the flammer swing photographed, the positions were not strobe during a swing but posed pictures, apparently -- hence he showed extreme positions of his hips for didactic purposes. His actual swings, as pointed out by others, did not use such extreme hip movements as are shown in the flammer pics. Those were made in order to make a point by exaggeration of the NATURE of the movement. He detested the concept of "turning in a barrel without any sideways movement of the hips" and went to the other extreme when teaching.

But when swinging, he had a wonderfully smooth and natural lower body swing to which he attributed his power. Not mentioning in the process that his arm strength was incredible and that a lot of his power was attributable to that. He said his clubhead cruising speed was 135 mph, his max about 155. THAT takes some kind of strength in the hands just to hold on.

 

[birdie_man]

As I said in my first post, I greatly appreciate what Brian has done, and I admire Mike Austin's swing ... very much. I understand that this is just a demonstration swing without a ball using a training device called flammer. However, Brian has chosen to analyse this sequence, probably because of the picture quality. I am just making an observation ... Describing what I see.

Brian mentions in the analysis that MA's grip is strong. If you look at his address position, his grip is not that strong. It LOOKS strong in frame 8 because he left the clubface wide open (way more than 3-4 degrees). Again, I'm not saying that he does that when he hits balls ... Just in this sequence.

So why is the clubface way open in this sequence? Was MA demonstrating how to hit a block fade with the flammer? Probably not.

As some other guys have noticed, MA's spine tilt in this sequence is significantly greater than when he hits the ball. Here is a comparison of the impact spine tilt. On the left you have the flammer swing, middle is an iron swing, and on the right you have the driver swing.

It is clear to see that Mike's spine tilt is greater with the flammer swing.

This raises some interesting questions. Can you have TOO MUCH axis tilt? Dare I say "perverted axis tilt"?

And can excess axis tilt cause the clubface to remain too open at impact?

C'mon, Rosser. Work with me ... What do you think?

Was he younger in the Flammer pic? (far left pic) Maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[JohnThomas1]

Austin by the book

Would anyone here have the kindness, patience and indeed knowledge to make an attempt at the Austin components via Homers book? Any effort would be massively appreciated. I have the Peace River tape.

John

 

[datagod]

Austin's Flat Left Wrist

This is greatly misunderstood. I was a friend and student of Mike during his last years. I also took lessons from several of his proteges. OTHER pros would "hold" their left wrist flat both on the back swing and down swing. Mike did not hold his wrist in any set position. He knew that tension in the wrist or forearm meant that he/any golfer would have to force it back into position prior to impact. Having to re-position muscles under tension meant/means less likelihood of delivering the clubface square to the ball at impact.

Mike COUNTER-ROTATED his wrist ... it was the last innovation in his swing. By counter-rotating his wrist I mean he did the OPPOSITE of all other golfers who fan the clubface open at the end of the backswing and have to re-position it on the way down. Mike rotated the wrist CLOSING the clubface, maintaining a semblance of square-to-the-ball clubface. The real genius though is that it's impossible to keep it closed on the downswing against ANY muscle tension. That means the club would almost ALWAYS return @ 90 deg. -- square -- to the ball, the most important element of hitting the ball straight. What you see is his wrist unwinding at the correct moment.

It takes a lot of getting used-to, I'll agree, but so does changing anything you've done for years. Mike had a remarkable mind and great insights into how the body worked in many sports -- golf, baseball, martial arts, boxing. He mastered them all. However, the inward or counter-rotation is Mike at his most insightful and most brilliant.

How accurate WAS Mike? As told by Phil Reed in his bio of Mike, Mike did a driving demo at a golf range in the 50's (I might have some of the details wrong, but not the outcome). Mike took a bucket of 50 beat-up ballata range balls and drove them at a green 350 yds. down range.

He put 48 of the 50 on the green.

Tiger? Where's Tiger? How about Phil? John (Daley)? Anybody?

Steve R.

 

[dannyc]

twistaway

 

[Matt Bryda]

It looks like a reverse tumble to me....because he had to, to hit the ball. IMO


Matt