Austin Talk

[birdie_man]

Ehehehhehehe....

OCD!

Good job man.

...

Started to read it.....about 10-12 lines down from the beginning you typed:

"But anyway, the pink line is the line I like to draw which is from the tailbone to the base of the next."

("next" should be "neck")

 

[mrodock]

i'll edit, thank you very much

anyone else catch anything please let me know

 

[Brian Manzella]

Wow!

Thanks!

What a nice thing to do.

 

[mrodock]

Thanks!

What a nice thing to do.

glad to help where I can

thanks Brian

 

[DOCW3]

I am trying to help the most golfers possible, improve their golf games and have more fun playing golf and continuing to improve.

I am trying to refute all the POOR teaching, and mislaeding teaching, and downright KOOL-AID teaching, that is going on in the golf business with my MATCHLESS combination of TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE, Real world experience, LIVE LESSON TEACHING ABILITY, frank talk, and easy to understand explanations.

I am also atempting to become the #1 teaching in the whole wide world and being acknowledged as such.

Oh, and "take over golf,"



It has the most answers of any book on the swing ever written, but for a myriad of reasons, is NEVER quite understood correctly, esp. by people who proclaim themselves as having THE ONLY TGM stoke patterns worth teaching.

I use the book as a tool. And to the above answer to the first question, it is a most important tool.



Can you rephrase this question, please?

Brian~

The last comment was not a question but a reference to one of your posts at the time of the forum transition as I remember. My understanding was that arguments were being presented resulting in conclusions that did not have your approval and somehow the new forum would correct this. I included it because it stimulated my post since recently I have had difficulty distinguishing threads that have a Manzella/TGM foundation from other opinions.

As I see it, your objective to produce improvement using Mr. Kelley's book as a tool is being accomplished.

DRW

 

[lmisner1040]

perfect impact George

Now George, the audio has been written out for you. Can you dig it now?

Lou

 

[Perfect Impact]

Now George, the audio has been written out for you. Can you dig it now?

Lou

Oh, Yes, IM: and I find it much more "on the mark" for its accuracy to what is TRULY going on than those "analyses" that do not explain but only describe. Cause and effect...

And of course again I thank Matt (mdrodoc) for the great effort put forth solely FOR me. That was LARGE.

With the credibility Brian enjoys here, it is neat that MA's swing can be told to his followers as it really is, that any skepticism or sense of it being "off the wall" be dispelled for them.

Thank you Matt, and thank you Brian. In the name of our mutual interests that everyone have access to good stuff.

 

[mrodock]

My pleasure PI, no worries, very pleased you enjoyed it.

I had listened to it before writing it out, and I realized how great the analysis was as I was going through it a bunch of times. They are so many great pieces in it. It was most impressive and enjoyable.

Matt

 

[Brian Manzella]

My pleasure PI, no worries, very pleased you enjoyed it.

I had listened to it before writing it out, and I realized how great the analysis was as I was going through it a bunch of times. They are so many great pieces in it. It was most impressive and enjoyable.

Matt

Thanks, guys.

...made my day.

 

[birdie_man]

BTW the analysis is on page 11 if anyone's looking for it....the pictues/audio...I just found it....looked at er again.

 

[lmisner1040]

Talk that Austin by BM

Oh, Yes, IM: and I find it much more "on the mark" for its accuracy to what is TRULY going on than those "analyses" that do not explain but only describe. Cause and effect...

And of course again I thank Matt (mdrodoc) for the great effort put forth solely FOR me. That was LARGE.

With the credibility Brian enjoys here, it is neat that MA's swing can be told to his followers as it really is, that any skepticism or sense of it being "off the wall" be dispelled for them.

Thank you Matt, and thank you Brian. In the name of our mutual interests that everyone have access to good stuff.

George, I thought you would like it. What a thread this has been.
Honest comentary. Just show's if your really into teaching and you want
be the real deal. You have to walk and talk the show. BM Thank You and to this thread from the beginning, it's been great.

Lou

 

[Jono]

Great Thread

Wow. I enjoyed this thread a lot. A big thank you to Brian for doing the analysis and to the MA experts for their contribution.

I have one question ... for anyone who may care to answer.

I have been working on getting more axis tilt into my downswing. As Brian pointed out, MA has plenty of it. One thing that I found whilst trying to achieve this tilt is that the more I tilt, more I tend to leave the club face open at impact, causing push slices. I have compensated somewhat by starting with a strong grip at address, with 3.5 knuckles of the left hand showing and the v of the right hand pointing to the right of the right shoulder. This does not seem like the ideal solution, however.

In the flammer swing sequence of MA that Brian analysed, the v of the right hand is pointing towards Mike's chin (or perhaps even towards the left ear) at address (frame 1). Now, at impact (frame 8) the v is leaning way right, towards the right shoulder. I can't see the club face very well, but unless he has shifted his grip around mid swing, the clubface at impact has to be more open than it was at address, correct?

My question is this. Does increasing axis tilt and trying to achieve the pitch stroke (with right elbow in front rather than at the side) tend to leave the clubface open? If so, what is the best way to go about squaring it up? The Manzella "twist away" move on the backswing?

Thanks again for this great thread.

 

[Perfect Impact]

Wow. I enjoyed this thread a lot. A big thank you to Brian for doing the analysis and to the MA experts for their contribution.

I have one question ... for anyone who may care to answer.

I have been working on getting more axis tilt into my downswing. As Brian pointed out, MA has plenty of it. One thing that I found whilst trying to achieve this tilt is that the more I tilt, more I tend to leave the club face open at impact, causing push slices. I have compensated somewhat by starting with a strong grip at address, with 3.5 knuckles of the left hand showing and the v of the right hand pointing to the right of the right shoulder. This does not seem like the ideal solution, however.

In the flammer swing sequence of MA that Brian analysed, the v of the right hand is pointing towards Mike's chin (or perhaps even towards the left ear) at address (frame 1). Now, at impact (frame 8) the v is leaning way right, towards the right shoulder. I can't see the club face very well, but unless he has shifted his grip around mid swing, the clubface at impact has to be more open than it was at address, correct?

My question is this. Does increasing axis tilt and trying to achieve the pitch stroke (with right elbow in front rather than at the side) tend to leave the clubface open? If so, what is the best way to go about squaring it up? The Manzella "twist away" move on the backswing?

Thanks again for this great thread.

When a swing is conceived in the brain, before downswing begins, YOU MUST REALIZE YOU ARE TRYING TO HAMMER the ball. And by saying that I mean that you must use the club the same as you do a hammer, NEITHER dragging the handle so it passes the ball/nail early, NOR shoving the head into the ball AHEAD of the hand. BOTH HANDLE AND HEAD MUST get there simultaneously. So you won't get away with overpowering the HANDLE END; you need to time your strike and release, and it may involve for you a feeling of WAITING longer. What actually DOES occur is a sense of a slower beginning at the top in which you marshall your force. What is sometimes meant when someone says "I was too quick!" In his second book, Nicklaus remarked that he had to start his release FROM THE VERY BEGINNING of his downswing.

So a late clubface is simply because of a lack of awareness of the position you have to be in at strike! Hands and head simultaneous.

You learn this by hitting an impact bag with all your might: it is the easiest thing in the world. The only issue is using THAT procedure for your GOLF swing.

If when you do this you still slice, clearly your grip is too weak.

 

[Jono]

When a swing is conceived in the brain, before downswing begins, YOU MUST REALIZE YOU ARE TRYING TO HAMMER the ball. And by saying that I mean that you must use the club the same as you do a hammer, NEITHER dragging the handle so it passes the ball/nail early, NOR shoving the head into the ball AHEAD of the hand. BOTH HANDLE AND HEAD MUST get there simultaneously. So you won't get away with overpowering the HANDLE END; you need to time your strike and release, and it may involve for you a feeling of WAITING longer. What actually DOES occur is a sense of a slower beginning at the top in which you marshall your force. What is sometimes meant when someone says "I was too quick!" In his second book, Nicklaus remarked that he had to start his release FROM THE VERY BEGINNING of his downswing.

So a late clubface is simply because of a lack of awareness of the position you have to be in at strike! Hands and head simultaneous.

You learn this by hitting an impact bag with all your might: it is the easiest thing in the world. The only issue is using THAT procedure for your GOLF swing.

If when you do this you still slice, clearly your grip is too weak.

I appreciate your reply, George. But I don't think I worded my question properly and you might have misinterpreted it.

Let's start with the no axis tilt. You lean forward some 30 degrees towards the ball, but there is no (or very little) tilt of the spine. Let's assume this is the address position. Now, assume the impact position that is shown in frame 8 of the MA sequence. This has a LOT of spine tilt to the right. As I tilt my spine to the right, I can feel a few things happening. The head moves to my right (away from the target), the hips move left (towards the target), right knee gets knocked in, and the right elbow moves towards the target ( in front of the right hip) in the pitch stroke position.

Along with these, I also notice the clubface OPENING relative to its initial orientation at address.

Have a look at the MA sequence again, George. Compare the orientation of the hands at address (frame 1) and at impact (frame 8). The V of the right hand at address is pointing straight up. The V at impact is leaning to the right. If the clubface was square at address, how can it be sqaure at impact when the hand orientation has changed this much?

My question is, does the spine tilt (ie. spine leaning AWAY from the target more at impact than at address) and the pitch stroke (right elbow in front of the right hip, closer to the target at impact than at address) TEND to open the clubface at impact? If so, what can we do to counter it?

I used to draw the ball. So I'm not unfamiliar of the feeling of squaring up the clubface. However, lately I've been working on achieving more axis tilt at impact, and also a bit more lag with the right elbow working its way into the pitch stroke position. Whilst working on these, I have found that I tend to come into impact with the clubface slightly open.

 

[Biffer]

Take a another look

Have a look at the MA sequence again, George. Compare the orientation of the hands at address (frame 1) and at impact (frame 8). The V of the right hand at address is pointing straight up. The V at impact is leaning to the right. If the clubface was square at address, how can it be sqaure at impact when the hand orientation has changed this much?

Jono,
The basic orientation of MA's hands have not changed from frame 1 to frames 8 and 9. The reason they look different is because of the large side tilt in frames 8 and 9. MA's arms are in the same relative position in those frames as they were in frame 1 and so is his grip, but the side tilt gives the impression that he has shifted his right hand to a stronger position.

 

[tourdeep]

raindrops keep falling on my palm...la te da

Wow. I enjoyed this thread a lot. A big thank you to Brian for doing the analysis and to the MA experts for their contribution.

I have one question ... for anyone who may care to answer.

I have been working on getting more axis tilt into my downswing. As Brian pointed out, MA has plenty of it. One thing that I found whilst trying to achieve this tilt is that the more I tilt, more I tend to leave the club face open at impact, causing push slices. I have compensated somewhat by starting with a strong grip at address, with 3.5 knuckles of the left hand showing and the v of the right hand pointing to the right of the right shoulder. This does not seem like the ideal solution, however.

In the flammer swing sequence of MA that Brian analysed, the v of the right hand is pointing towards Mike's chin (or perhaps even towards the left ear) at address (frame 1). Now, at impact (frame 8) the v is leaning way right, towards the right shoulder. I can't see the club face very well, but unless he has shifted his grip around mid swing, the clubface at impact has to be more open than it was at address, correct?

My question is this. Does increasing axis tilt and trying to achieve the pitch stroke (with right elbow in front rather than at the side) tend to leave the clubface open? If so, what is the best way to go about squaring it up? The Manzella "twist away" move on the backswing?

Thanks again for this great thread.

Been experimenting with tilt, maybe to the point of exaggeration. Higher ball flight, not doubt. ...as a long time angle hinger, I consciously focus on #3 accumulator, call it supination, maybe a swivel, with the manzella grip (Hogan left thumb positon) has been the trick for me. Maybe it's left palm to the sky for more right to left or thumbs up for more straight at follow thru..

 

[birdie_man]

I think once the pivot is trained and the hands are educated.....Aiming Point and impact Hand Location (and invariably Delivery Path) is a big deal. (+ so long as you have a good backswing pivot)

 

[rosser]

PIVOTSKI

I think once the pivot is trained and the hands are educated.....Aiming Point and impact Hand Location (and invariably Delivery Path) is a big deal. (+ so long as you have a good backswing pivot)

This swing is all PIVOT, includes BOTH ways. Backswing and Downswing.

Once you understand the WHOLE COMPLETE PIVOT, You understand the role of the hands and arms. Whole lots of "Axis Tilt" will be there waiting for ya.

Mike Austin Pivoted exactly how Brian explains in his best threads to date, next to this one.

Search Perfect Pivot backswing part 1 and Perfect pivot downswing part 2.

Right out of the MA play book. Learned it from him years ago.

It's one of main reasons, I wanted Brian to do the analysis. It shows the pivot so clearly. Where the power comes from, the body pivot, expels the hands and arms. BM, blew the cover off so all can see , and maybe if pivot learned, one can show case it on the course. ')

It don't get any better than this forum.

 

[Jono]

Jono,
The basic orientation of MA's hands have not changed from frame 1 to frames 8 and 9. The reason they look different is because of the large side tilt in frames 8 and 9. MA's arms are in the same relative position in those frames as they were in frame 1 and so is his grip, but the side tilt gives the impression that he has shifted his right hand to a stronger position.

I think I understand what you are saying ... What you are referring to is the orientation of the hands relative to the body, right? When the spine is vertical, the hands are vertical ... When the spine is tilted to the right, the hands get tilted to the right.

I still maintain that the hands in frame 8 are more open than in frame 1 relative to the GROUND (or the ball). In both frames 1 and 8, the shaft is pretty much vertical. I can not see how they can both be square.

I'm trying it in front of the mirror. I get into a similar position to frame 1 in front of the mirror, with square clubface and a grip that has the v of the right hand pointing straight up. Now, I get into a similar position to frame 8 with the axis tilt, pitch stroke right elbow position. The shaft is still vertical or slightly forward leaning (but appears way forward leaning from my viewpoint due to the axis tilt). There is no way that I can get the clubface to be square with the v pointing to the right shoulder and still have the shaft vertical (or slightly forward leaning). The only way I can have the clubface square whilst having the v point that far right is to have the shaft leaning away from the target and adding loft.

So am I the only one that thinks that MA's clubface in frame 8 is significantly open relative to frame 1?

 

[rosser]

OPEN

I think I understand what you are saying ... What you are referring to is the orientation of the hands relative to the body, right? When the spine is vertical, the hands are vertical ... When the spine is tilted to the right, the hands get tilted to the right.

I still maintain that the hands in frame 8 are more open than in frame 1 relative to the GROUND (or the ball). In both frames 1 and 8, the shaft is pretty much vertical. I can not see how they can both be square.

I'm trying it in front of the mirror. I get into a similar position to frame 1 in front of the mirror, with square clubface and a grip that has the v of the right hand pointing straight up. Now, I get into a similar position to frame 8 with the axis tilt, pitch stroke right elbow position. The shaft is still vertical or slightly forward leaning (but appears way forward leaning from my viewpoint due to the axis tilt). There is no way that I can get the clubface to be square with the v pointing to the right shoulder and still have the shaft vertical (or slightly forward leaning). The only way I can have the clubface square whilst having the v point that far right is to have the shaft leaning away from the target and adding loft.

So am I the only one that thinks that MA's clubface in frame 8 is significantly open relative to frame 1?

Jono

Yes it is a bit open, like it should be, 3 to 4 degrees and square at separation. I would bet your Speed Chain or Torso Burner, your house, not pets, that you use your hands way too much, to soon. Learning the correct pivot. Trust this swing, it will square up right on time. Pivot compels the hunds. Get it, get game. ')