Austin Talk

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Hi George ,So you never got to hear Brians expination, do you get any sound out your computer? as for Brians explination and observations he made Rosser quite happy, its the unique look when you have a trained eye and yet a outside agency observing, in the case the Austin swing, Brian gave a interesting breakdown and deminstrated to us that the Austin swing is a swing full of power and can hold up over time, unlike some swing models which take peek strength and flexibility to work properly, This is a shining example for people to see and a good reason to use this style of swing. Squish and George you both should be smiling, this validates both your work. both Rosser and I tried to show this in the Austin threads. Brian observed correctly the odd comments some people stated as Austin discriptions and the obvious difference between Mike and the swing of Jaacob. Jaacob's swing really is Dans rendition and not Mike's, although in Mikes later years he experimented in his mind and talked with Dan, and Dan added to that and wrote his book, the idea of the A frame model swing is not what Austin did, and Brian pointed out that in no way did Austin keep C7 stationary in space and just use it as a pivot point as some were saying. I guess in helping Dan to deminstrate his swing it caused some people to try and mix the different swing info, I tries to clear that problem up and So Brian helped clear the air of confusion. Again thanks Brian for your comments and having an interesting golf site, JerryMB
 
Jer: my computer sound is fine. Movies, things play, everything sounds normal --and I have tried two programs - QT and WMP, to play the audios and have not succeeded. I checked all settings etc. No luck.

Anyway, I am glad that one of "our camp" DID hear Brian's comments and that the points we try to make were recognized. That's great. Great for golf and for those reading and are really looking for something they don't have to change later because it wasn't the best available...

The A frame thing in extremus is certainly not Austin or anyone else: all the elements need to fit the body of the player; but the principles that player DOES fit to his body are key. They simply look different in different builds, for example in Woosie and in Mike himself. Or Payne Stewart, or VJ.
 

peru

New
in frame 7 it seems that ma's elbow is deep into his side? what part does the elbow play in his swing ?

peru
 
peru said:
in frame 7 it seems that ma's elbow is deep into his side? what part does the elbow play in his swing ?

peru

Hi, peru. In every good swing you need to get to a proper 6/100 position
(6/100th of a second before impact). This position has your trail elbow close to and in front of the trail hip, or side just above the hip, with the clubshaft parallel to the ground with the grip pointing down the target line. This, like any other part of the swing, is not a static position but one that you must pass through. However, it is something that needs to be practiced, imo, and Paul Bertholy came out with some great drills for doing this. Just do a google search or some forum searches on Bertholy and you'll find lots of info on him. Best of luck.
Jerry
 
Yes: Quantum Golf is the very man who I paid a lot of money to teach me the Austin swing instead of what I HAD been attempting and which was captured in this vid, which was the Dan Shauger misinterpretation of the Austin swing (no rotation, single plane swing), clearly totally unsuited to my body and range of motion. It wasn't Austin at all: nor was it what I used to do before my exposure to Shauger. But he mislead me with the "signed authentic MA endorsement" in his book and I fell for it.

QG (who IS Thomas Dang, or his wife..) actually intentionally withheld from me the Austin instruction materials for three months before meeing him in person for instruction AND for another three days INTO it, so at the time he filmed what I thought I was supposed to do, I had had no MA instruction AS MIKE REALLY TAUGHT.

When I worked with Shauger some six months earlier, a couple hours into a two day stint with him I injured my back and had to remain seated for the next day and a half and hear him instruct without even being able to swing a club. It took me 6 months to recover from that injury. Which is precisely why I went back to the west coast to meet Mike in person and get THE REAL thing. When finally I DID get his instruction - not from TDang, despite a week with him, but from Mike's own recorded materials, I found that I already had most of his swing right before making the Shauger changes that you see me attempting here. Of course it is grotesque: Mike never came CLOSE to teaching what Shauger had me trying to do...

People who have my new DVD can see the difference for themselves, wherein I demonstrate for several hours and many motions and swings EXACTLY what Mike taught. And at the end there are a series of shots of me hitting drivers and irons. My swing is necessarily abbreviated by my limited range of motion, but it is exactly as I teach, describe, and perform. Not close to what you see in the video. And powerful enough, thank you. I am 74 + years old...
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
George, ole buddy.

Why would you go see this yahoo, when you could have come to see me?

Wow!

Anyhoo, upload your new swing and we'll see what we can do.
 
Brian Manzella said:
I have NEVER

EVER

EVER

EVER

said the left wrist HAS TO be flat all the way to the finish.

Not once.

As a matter of fact, IMO, it HAS TO bend in a PURE SWING.

I just don't think many people CAN PURE SWING or should.


Brian~

If it is significant to your purpose, where would one go to understand what you are trying to accomplish with this forum and to what extent the "yellow book" is important. For what ever the reason, I had the understanding that one of your objectives in the forum change was to manage the various concepts that differed from your experience and objectives.

Thanks

DRW
 
Brian, Thanks For two reasons: At the time I didn't know he was a yahoo (you are insightful, thank you indeed!), and he was the authorized rep for Mike, who was flat in bed when I met him and led me to TD. Mike simply didn't know that TD doesn't know S about teaching -- neither you nor I would allow him ten minutes working under us. I did not discover until too late that he had such a passive-aggressive attitude and agenda.

And it was because I wanted to meet Mike myself and learn his secrets and his method from him that I took that particular course of action. When I met Mike in person, TD was there, and he promised me forthwith copies of Mike's DVDs. I was clueless as to how he would treat me; for example, I didn't find out till later that he intentionally withheld them from me.

I don't have the knowhow to post my swing here: and I do "have" my swing all together in a form I am sure you would approve. Tx. I wish I could hear your analysis of Mike's swing, but of all your audios here, that one simply will not play on my puter: the others do play just fine.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Answers.

DOCW3 said:
What are you trying to accomplish with this forum?

I am trying to help the most golfers possible, improve their golf games and have more fun playing golf and continuing to improve.

I am trying to refute all the POOR teaching, and mislaeding teaching, and downright KOOL-AID teaching, that is going on in the golf business with my MATCHLESS combination of TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE, Real world experience, LIVE LESSON TEACHING ABILITY, frank talk, and easy to understand explanations.

I am also atempting to become the #1 teaching in the whole wide world and being acknowledged as such.

Oh, and "take over golf,"

To what extent the "yellow book" is important?

It has the most answers of any book on the swing ever written, but for a myriad of reasons, is NEVER quite understood correctly, esp. by people who proclaim themselves as having THE ONLY TGM stoke patterns worth teaching.

I use the book as a tool. And to the above answer to the first question, it is a most important tool.

For what ever the reason, I had the understanding that one of your objectives in the forum change was to manage the various concepts that differed from your experience and objectives.

Can you rephrase this question, please?
 
Okay, I completed typing out the entirety of the audio Brian did on Mike Austin's swing. If anyone besides Perfect Impact needs it let me know and I will email it to you. Brian if you would like to review it and make sure it is accurate you can do so. Although it is not quoted exactly (about 98%), the intent is gotten across I believe. Note, I have OCD.

Matt
 
Matt, a huge thanks to you for that effort: I just printed it and will take my time to read and absorb it. That was quite an effort: I know because of having done similar things myself. Big thank you.
 
No problem Perfect Impact, learned a lot more than I did listening to it once. I'm just sorry I didn't do it sooner. I thought it would take longer than it did.

Matt
 
text of Mike Austin audio

OK, Mike Austin. Mike Austin was known for a lot of things, and one of the things he was known for is long hitting. And the swing we have here of him on brianmanzella.com is one where he is a little younger than the 515 yard drive he hit when he was 74 years old. But I can tell you he was capable of doing that at this point too. From a standpoint of personal preference, I like almost everything he does. If I were teaching someone who came to me and said I would like to be a good player and play tournament golf, but I want to hit it as far as I can, there is almost nothing in this pattern that I wouldn’t teach. Let’s look at frame 1 at address and I will explain some of the lines I have, I have a box drawn from the middle of the feet straight up from the base of his neck. You can see that, and the arms line would be the center line of the box, you can now see this triangle that is now talked about on some websites as being advantageous. I think it has its places. I think their interpretation is incorrect in my opinion, of course it’s a free country. But anyway, the pink line is the line I like to draw which is from the tailbone to the base of the neck. This is where his spine is so you can see whether he turns around his spine. He has a slightly strong grip, he has a great address position, and it’s hard to tell in this first frame his right knee is little kicked in a little bit, whether this was a forward press or not, doesn’t matter, I like it. He’s behind the ball, he has nice width in his stance, he has mid-body hands, which means his right wrist is relatively flat, not completely, and his left wrist is slightly bent. In the first frame, he allows the club to open, which he has a strong enough grip squaring the club isn’t going to be a problem. Allowing the club to open at this point, like a Michael Finney helps you with a little roundness in your swing and also there is no reason for him to bend his right wrist dead straight back and keep the clubface looking at the ball because he is not making that kind of swing, he’s making a swing that opens and closes. But it doesn’t open as much as you might think, because in frame 4 with a nice flat left wrist that clubface is pointing away from him. Now when I teach slicers and a lot of people that need the clubface pointing away from them it is very desirable because it hasn’t overly opened the club. I think the clubface position in 2 and 4 in our swing sequence here kind of interested in how he opens the club early but it doesn’t open all that much. But you can see by the third frame he is now allowing his head to move as he is turning around his spine. I saw some things in this thread that they were talking about how he has his hips move underneath his thread. Maybe he does this later in his career, but there is no doubt to me that although he is getting onto his right hip you can see how he has closed the gap already with his hips even though they are very squarish right now, he is turning around his spine, he is not keeping his upper spine stationary while his lower spine moves way to the right, although you can almost make the point that he does a little bit right there because his tailbone has moved a little further to the right than the upper spine. So maybe that’s what he feels, this frame 3 where he’s making sure he’s getting to his right hip. He does not allow his head to stay frozen in that original position though, because by frame 4 he has really gotten on his right hip, started to turn, and also really re-centered himself on that pink line where now the bottom of the pink line is pretty close to the spine bottom, and the top of the pink line is right on the base of his neck. I think this is a great position that almost everyone should be trying to get in. I have never seen anybody play better by taking this position and moving it the other way, unless they are a big hooker (double entendre?), let’s not talk about that, let’s talk about Mike Austin. The 5th frame is just an awesome position for power and really for accuracy. He has completely gotten behind the ball, his head has moved now, there was no part of his head on the upper left corner of that yellow box and now shoot it is almost through the middle of his forehead. And you can see that the pink line is very closely representing where his tailbone and the base of his neck is. I just think that’s a great position, he’s turned his hips a bunch, I mean 50-60 degrees, he’s turned his back well more than 90 degrees, he has a nice flat left wrist, his hands are up in the air, his right arm is in a throwing position, none of this overly flat backswing that is being taught in some circles. He let his left heel get pulled off the ground, it wasn’t off the ground before, but as he reaches for the top of the swing he does it. This is a model top of the backswing position. One of the reasons Mike Austin was a great player very late in life, to me the people that try for this head in the middle of the feet stuff they are going to have problems as they get older. Mike Austin obviously did not have problems hitting the ball far and straight when he was older. I understand he had some problems late, late in life, like so many people do. But by all accounts, a swing that lasted. Okay, frame number 6, too bad we don’t have a 5.5 where would probably be his sit-down position where his knees and hips would probably be a lot more centered, but you can extrapolate looking at 5 and 6. Here is where he begins to do what I like to call tilting the tea cup, like Ben Doyle had taught me, axis tilt. Now there are a lot of different ways to do axis tilt, and you can get away with a lot of things, but if you want to hit the ball far you want the axis tilt to work the way Austin did it. His tailbone, the bottom of the pink line in frame 5 has moved to this bluish gray line in frame 6, so the tailbone moved forward and to maintain his balance the neck bone has moved backward. A lot of people will say “Oh no, but you gotta . . .” (laughs) Yeah, but, for balance sake, from that top of the backswing position his head should move backward when the lower spine moves forward to maintain balance. Okay, now he has a lot of accumulator lag right here, he’s pulling the arrow out of the quiver, he’s obviously doing that from the ground up, look at how much his left leg and right leg have moved from 5 to 6, as well as his hips, his stomach, his belt buckle, but his head though is very similar to where it was. Actually the spine part moved back just a little bit, but his head is still way behind the ball. Left shoulder up to the upper right corner of the yellow box and the right shoulder now going to the ball. Again a model position. Frame 7, I just love it because, there is even more of this tilt, that is the yellow tilted line, his head has gone further to the right, his hips have gone further to the left (from the golfer’s perspective). And he has gotten his hands to the ball, if you look at that yellow line, that’s sort of right of his eyeball’s, that’s the line of sight as Ben Doyle always talked about it. His hands have almost passed the ball and his clubhead is nowhere near the ball. He has the pitch position elbow which a lot of people don’t like, but I will tell you it hits the ball further. He is on, no doubt, the elbow plane which most of the time provides the best support. He has now moved his hips even further left, without losing the flex in the left knee, without picking the right foot off the ground. So he’s still in a position to get a little more dynamic in the hips in 7.5 if it existed. And his left leg is much straighter in 8 than it was in 7. He is almost the ultimate example of what I call hitting the box. Now if you put another yellow box to the right of the yellow box that I have (from your perspective), he would be hitting the front of the box, the box that I have he is hitting the back of the box, he is putting the whole club on that box post-impact, so we know he had forward lean at impact, which I am a big proponent of. He had plenty of axis tilt. His head is way behind the ball, no tripod of any kind there, I’m not saying tripod, I think the swing center is that orange line in the yellow box, I think that is the center for his components, but not his head for crying out loud, his head is way on the other side of the box. Just another great position, a lot of support from the right leg, right foot still on the ground, good and behind the ball. In a very similar position, catches the dog a little more as he gets to frame 9 but a very similar position.
 
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There was a lot of talk in threads about the fact that his left wrist is now bent and his right wrist is now straight. You know that Brian Manzella he teaches . . . But the thing is: Who am I teaching this to? David Toms, No, his right wrist flattens (laughing), he can play a little bit, as long as he isn’t on a US Open course apparently, he hurt his back in the Open at Shinnecock, he has had some good finishes in the US Open. Anyway, listen, geometrically, physics-wise, scientifically, you are going to generate more speed if your right wrist straightens. Speed! He doesn’t need any thrust, this is a big cat right here. If you get a stick and swing it right handed and left handed your left wrist is going to bend if you are trying to create speed. He has speed right here. Also, by frame 11, where the clubface is, the clubface has rotated pretty closed, I don’t know with that grip that Austin had, which is a great grip for distance, I don’t know if keeping his left wrist flat would have been very good, because he would have ended up with a lot more closed clubface than he needed. Look at frame 10 how he maintains his axis tilt, like some people say, perverted axis tilt, give me a break, axis tilt, axis tilt. Look at how well he goes from frame 6, to where he basically sets the axis he is going to hit it with in frame 7, and maintains it from release point (probably in frame 6.75) to absolutely in frame 11 where he has just rotated along that angle, he set it and rotated around that angle and released his accumulators, he has gotten all of his angles out fully, including his right wrist. Just a great swing! He actually has a little more knee flex in 10 and 11, I think a lot of people do that to save their back. Wonderful finish position. He’s allowed this club to pull him out of that 11 position into 12. All in all a model golf swing for those that want to hit the ball long and straight. Looks a lot like a younger Mike Finney if Michael would have been built more like Mike Austin. He has plenty of axis tilt, has pitch position elbow, is a double shifter, maybe even a triple shifter. Look at the difference between frame 1 and frame 8. There will never be a better example of the differences between address and impact, and the absolute folly of trying to set up at impact and try to hit it real far. I’m not saying that isn’t a good way to hit it straight, but there is a lot of good mechanics, a lot of good components, a lot of good physics. I know he was a real smart guy, he studied kinesiology and biomechanics, he obviously applied all that to this swing, and I’m sure the golf swing he hit the 515 yards with. I’m sure the Mike Austinites will like what I have to say. I just want people to understand this is a golf swing built for power, wouldn’t necessarily make you a good putter. Mike Austin might have been a better tournament player if he was a better iron player, I don’t know what his swing looked like an 8 iron in his hands, from all accounts he didn’t have the greatest short game of all time. But this is a swing that if you could get someone to do it, a guy at the local driving range that played twice a week, or an aspiring touring player, you would have, in my opinion a very good player on your hands for a very, very long time.
 
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