hp12c
New
Yup very close to the wall, on my 1st attempt my whole shoulder arms hands went out to the wall I had to really change how the shoulder arms hands worked on the DS, very revealing!.
Backing the shaft up (now with page 2 Manzella Video)
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hp12c
New
Ok good I wasnt hearing things at first I though it was the tape making that sound and it was being recorded and then it hit me we are digital now duh! Im not the smartest man.
hp12c
New
Buckets are like potatoe chips cant just have one!!!
KGlennCole
New
Hey!! I remember this!! Video of BManz taken by yours truly @ English Turn!
Brian was explaining some of the things we were worked on the 3 days I was there.
hp12c
New
Ok so yeah I didnt go to work, im a baaaad boy! My few attemps at this vertical hand path were how shall I say CRAP!!!!!! So I went to the pro shop wall and did what I did at home and I noticed this 2 pivot points #1 my left shoulder and #2my right elbow, yeah I know they have alway been there but now they seem more pronounced! and it really helped me to implement this vertical hand path. I took my stance as before put the club as before when I was at the wall but now Im on the range and I right arm curled the club to the top, yes I have a flat back swing, I did that a few time with no turn aka backswing. With just that move from the top and no turn I smacked the ball and saw the club go out to the ball, I was all giddy like a school girl, wait I was all giddy like a, never mind it was cool!!!! I started to s-lo-w-l-y add some speed still with no turn BS and I was smacking that ball. The real issue started when I turned away BS and pulled the ball waaaaay leeeft of left. so I sat there thinkg and this came to my little brain WWBD (what would Brian do) and I hear Bmanz saying just let the pivot respond to the swing in the IATR vid, ok Bmanz here we go, I didnt trust Bmanz but the ball didnt goo left of left but stil went left. I felt like Luke Skywalker in star wars trust the force (Bmanz) Luke, ok and yes a draw good progress! I noticed when I really jumped on it it went left of left and far but not playable,a work in progress for sure but happy to miss work and work on my game and this feels so differnt but good. Can I now play with this no way do I wanna play with this, all the time!!!!
So I went to the pro shop wall and did what I did at home and I noticed this 2 pivot points #1 my left shoulder and #2my right elbow, yeah I know they have alway been there but now they seem more pronounced! and it really helped me to implement this vertical hand path. I took my stance as before put the club as before when I was at the wall but now Im on the range and I right arm curled the club to the top, yes I have a flat back swing, I did that a few time with no turn aka backswing. With just that move from the top and no turn I smacked the ball and saw the club go out to the ball, I was all giddy like a school girl, wait I was all giddy like a, never mind it was cool!!!! I started to s-lo-w-l-y add some speed still with no turn BS and I was smacking that ball. The real issue started when I turned away BS and pulled the ball waaaaay leeeft of left. so I sat there thinkg and this came to my little brain WWBD (what would Brian do) and I hear Bmanz saying just let the pivot respond to the swing in the IATR vid, ok Bmanz here we go, I didnt trust Bmanz but the ball didnt goo left of left but stil went left. I felt like Luke Skywalker in star wars trust the force (Bmanz) Luke, ok and yes a draw good progress! I noticed when I really jumped on it it went left of left and far but not playable,a work in progress for sure but happy to miss work and work on my game and this feels so differnt but good. Can I now play with this no way do I wanna play with this, all the time!!!!Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Unfortunately these eyes have seen it. The corresponding move to try to hit it is just as frightening.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If there was a universal fix it would fall into two categories or patterns. The "Rickie Fowler" lay it off fast, stay bent over, jam the handle into your testicles tumble pattern. And the "Kenny Perry" cross the line, touch your forearms, stay back, stay closed , stay on your right heel, stay on top of the sweetspot pattern.
lookingtolearn
New
This is very interesting. I understand the "Rickie Fowler" idea, but how does the "Kenny Perry" pattern help?
Also, what do you mean by "touch your forearms?"
I was trying out Art's bumpy back and working on handpath for the past couple of days and my right side (quadratus lumborum muscle) was getting extremely sore. I played today and my right side was absolutely killing me right after impact. I noticed then that I was keeping the right hip back so that at impact and right after, my pelvis was still parallel to the target line and my right side muscle (quadratus lumborum) was basically the only muscle resisting the pull of the club into the follow through. I had basically overdone bumpy back and was so focused on handpath that I was not using any pelvic/hip turn. I was also still missing the ball to the left.
So, I started trying from the transition to get the hands going vertical until the left arm was parallel to the ground or even a little farther down and then turning the pelvis/hips trying to get the belt buckle facing the target more. It seemed the pelvic turn also helped in not closing the face too soon as I was not missing shots left. I could only swing about 70% because of my side pain which was reduced by doing this, but I was hitting the ball much better and on target.
It seems to me at the moment that for me it is at least a hand path and pelvis issue. I'll take a few days off to let my side calm down and get back to work on it.
Dear spktho,
Just read your very descriptive account of pain developing as a result of TOO MUCH KEEP IT BACK, while you were changing and concentrating on arm and hand path issues. PLEASE don't try to augment BBKIB with other voluntary body movement experiments. With BBKIB, the upper 'body optimized' positions, including the arms need only be carried thru the transition and downswing, involuntarily, WITH YOUR PRESENT UNALTERED SWING.
Also, since you make no mention as to the starting position and possible movement of your lower body, especially the coccyx, as described in previous posts, to have lower body dynamic stability MARGIN, it is necessary that it be pointing straight down, or better yet towards the rear foot.
Regarding the downswing, the rear (right) hip should FOLLOW and kind of be 'rotationally pulled' and be just rotating slower than the forward (left) hip. Depending on swing style, and the degree of involvement of the rear (right) side in 'hitting', and the hand/arm path variations you are using, the rear hip and quadratus lumborum, should have different rotational paths, but the rear hip should not ever be forcefully held and NOT rotate until impact.
Finally, and maybe a better 'visual' would be that the 'screw axis of rotation' for the pelvis from the top of the back swing until impact moves from near the back hip joint to near the front hip joint NATURALLY, that is involuntarily, rather than as you said, "trying to get the belt buckle facing the target more".
If you have further interest, and if possible, a video of a single swing in the past, where you have felt pain would be appreciated.
curtisj76
New
I've hit my junk maybe a handful of times with the handle..................look out PGA Tour!
Anyone else done that? Hurts a little
WoodbridgeGolf37
New
In order to fix certain faults, it's been recommend to "take away the reward". How would you do that for someone who backs-up the shaft and then thrusts towards the ball and stands the handle up to fit it all in?
Spktho, interesting stuff about trying KIB too much. I've learned a lot about hip rotation and am also changing the motion somewhat. I watched some pro swings over and over this last weekend and am moving to perhaps a better sequence. I concluded many of those guys can easily fire hips soon and still maintain their stability AND have the proper handpath...and that is something I just can't seem to do. So for me, the transition is becoming an arms first event.
WoodbridgeGolf37, good question, I'd like to hear the answer to, so I can see better how in general to fix faults. The standing the handle up is a symptom (fix) of the earlier problem of (I'd say) a shoulder problem. So do we remove the reward of the fix, the fitting in, or do we "just" remove the the ability to stand the handle up? it seems, to block a right shoulder going toward the ball, one might need some special plywood structures to swing next to....
WoodbridgeGolf37, good question, I'd like to hear the answer to, so I can see better how in general to fix faults. The standing the handle up is a symptom (fix) of the earlier problem of (I'd say) a shoulder problem. So do we remove the reward of the fix, the fitting in, or do we "just" remove the the ability to stand the handle up? it seems, to block a right shoulder going toward the ball, one might need some special plywood structures to swing next to....
WoodbridgeGolf37
New
I think having someone hold an alignment rod parallel to the ground at about waist height may do the trick. It would certainly force you to get your hands down earlier to allow them to swing freely under the stick (which would also seemingly facilitate a tumble of the clubhead out to the ball) Otherwise you'd be smacking the rod with your hands/arms around impact - which would definitely "remove the reward"
Art, sorry no swings on video when my side began getting sore. Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming the soreness on the bumpy back concept, it is most likely on my miss-implementation along with working on another swing change at the same time. I can pm you a swing from last week prior to working on these things if you want to check my hip motions. I am having a hard time visualizing how to point the coccyx toward the right foot. This seems to need a pelvic tilt with the right side higher? In doing that, would that help with the keep it back part? I'm going to also chime in on the need for a video representation/explanation for better clarification of the concept.
dbl, I definitely have the same trouble as you do with proper sequencing and have a hard time to just let it happen as I always seem to want to control it. As Art pointed out, this should happen unconsciously with the left and right hip motion not in unison. I also need to feel like the hands move first to start the downswing or else I tug them outward, but I think my tug is mostly from the upper body wanting to power the swing.
dbl, I definitely have the same trouble as you do with proper sequencing and have a hard time to just let it happen as I always seem to want to control it. As Art pointed out, this should happen unconsciously with the left and right hip motion not in unison. I also need to feel like the hands move first to start the downswing or else I tug them outward, but I think my tug is mostly from the upper body wanting to power the swing.
KGlennCole
New
Sorry. That was me holding Brian's iPhone. Brian and I had just finished our 3rd day.. of ~2hr sessions in 90+ degrees plus a playing lesson and, seemingly, +90% humidity. I was exhausted at this point. I will admit I have a bit of a breathing problem, also... 'effin' lung problems (non-smoker).
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KGlennCole
New
What ball flight are they being rewarded with for this fit in move? Taking away the reward is more relevant to the shot it produces
Dear spktho,
Thank's for the prompt reply, and YES, I would very much appreciate a video so I can assess scientifically, (not as a teacher), and estimate the magnitude of your dynamic instabilities. It is not important whether or not you are working on the various release options, I really prefer to see your regular swing.
Regarding the position and direction of coccyx pointing, I would like to postpone any comment until I see how the various dynamic disturbances are developing, and how best to minimize them with the set-up, and if necessary, motion and path of the lower body. The track record of 100% here in person, and well over 80% by judging the comments returned on this site over the past few months gives me great confidence that you TOO will soon be realizing 10% distance improvements and 40-50% dispersion reductions by developing better dynamic stability.
Looking very forward to our next chapter, and regards,
art
dschultz6072
New
Any ball flight is better than a wheef.
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