Backing the shaft up (now with page 2 Manzella Video)

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Here is what I learned implementing some of this thread/video at the range. It helped me so maybe it could help some of you.

1. SD grip
2. Pre turned right hip
3. SD ish BS
4. Javelin throw feel of right arm/hand at transition (feels like some shaft shallowing/flattening going on)
5. NHA drop the arms
6. Tumble the crud out of it from there

It is easier to 'stay seated in the right hip' at transition if you allow your arms to drop rather than tug across the chest. It is also much easier to swing in balance and finish up on that right toe.

So that is the pattern that really worked well for me the last 2 days. I can see improvement throughout the bag.

A follow up question to the Manzella boys: Why is it easier to shallow the club and then tumble with a long iron/ hybrid/ driver than for the wedges and short irons?

Is it just the length of time needed to 'square it up'?
 
Would it maybe be helpful to learn the vertical hand path/vertical left arm with the driver or 3 wood? I can do it ok with the mid to short irons, but not even close with the driver.

With swings in the backyard, really have keep the body back behind the ball and late axis tilt?
 
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I just wanted to give big probs for the answers in this thread. I've been searching for years trying to figure out where my swing goes wrong and I think this is it. I'm going to go out and work on it when it gets below a million degrees her in the south. Keep up the dialog. Thanks
 
Would it maybe be helpful to learn the vertical hand path/vertical left arm with the driver or 3 wood? I can do it ok with the mid to short irons, but not even close with the driver.

With swings in the backyard, really have keep the body back behind the ball and late axis tilt?

If you check out Brian's video on this thread, there is a slow motion bit of the butt of the club moving in and starting to come up as he tumbles. I.E pre impact but I saw somewhere you mentioned doing this after impact. It's a great demo of what you're trying to do with bashing yourself in the nut! Also in the video you can see how the tumble "morphs" into swinging across the left leg, that might help with your pull IMO.
 

leon

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Back from a few weeks hiatus and finally caught up with the forum. This is BY FAR the best new thread, and IMO the best for some time.

Would like to bump the question to Kevin on Kenny Perry - I always thought the only way out of steep transition was a la Rickie - massive transition layoff then tumble like mad (incidentally, would this be akin to what Sergio does?)

Which brings me to my next question. How does transition layoff then tumble jive with out-toss feel? I can do one or other, but can't get the feel of merging it all together. Feels like my left forearm would need to rotate in both directions at once.
 
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What ball flight are they being rewarded with for this fit in move? Taking away the reward is more relevant to the shot it produces

I'm just thinking out loud: but if you back-up the shaft and then make a fit-in/stand-up move, wouldn't the face generally open? If you buy that thinking, then the ball flight they are being rewarded for is probably a straight push? Which is very playable but maybe not ideal.
 

leon

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I'm just thinking out loud: but if you back-up the shaft and then make a fit-in/stand-up move, wouldn't the face generally open? If you buy that thinking, then the ball flight they are being rewarded for is probably a straight push? Which is very playable but maybe not ideal.

Unless you flip it shut and hook the crap out of it.

I still think the reward here is just hitting the ball. Tough to take that away and feel like you're making progress :(
 

art

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So it looks like a move that an over the topper would do to not pull the crap out of it right?

Trying to figure out the hips part. You want your hips really open at impact right? Is it just that you don't want them to open too soon?

Does the "bumpy thingy" come into this at all?



Dear curtisJ76,

At the time of my writing this, there are 90 posts, and yours, about in the middle was the first to mention the "bumpy thingy', which IMO is the solution for much if not ALL of this.

So thanks , because after reading every post carefully, researching the unique terms, I am now SURE I have a contribution to make to EVERY ONE OF YOU.

First though, I would like to note that for the first time I noticed some nomenclature for those involved with the Manzella Academy that I had never noticed before, as I was always anxious to get to the posts. So let me apologize, pay my respects to these folks, and then recognize that just on this string, we have a video from the " Director of Instruction", and comments from a "Master Instructor", a "Distinguished Fellow", and a ".com Moderator", all of whom I noted, did not comment on your "bumpy thingy" comment.

The reason I at first hesitated to point that out is that to many of you, it will appear SELF SERVING, but for those that have taken the time to know me, they understand what I am REALLY trying to do, is to SERVE YOU, NOT ME.

IMO, from what I have read and reread on this very informative string, is that it is being DRIVEN NOT BY THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM, BUT BY THE EFFECT. The cause , IMO, is the OBVIOUS TO ME loss of lower, and now upper body dynamic balance, for which an extensive glossary of terms, and most unfortunately several suggested 'compensating' (and resultant reflex) moves are suggested, and worst of all, practiced in hopes of improving.

So, rather than JUST criticize, let me as is my habit propose an alternative and solution; yes, BBKIB, and I will tell you WHY, a characteristic much too absent in golf literature, and sometimes even in instruction, where every WHY should be ASKED answered.

BBKIB, as I have written in many other posts, has purposely been limited in detailed information to the lower body, in my attempt to retain some intellectual property to later sell, and hopefully offset some of the expected and horrendous educational expenses of our 2 grandchildren, just 4 and 7 today, so there is time.

Regarding the Title of this thread however, it is necessary and I am anxious and WILLING to uncover some of the reasons and cures for UPPER BODY DYNAMIC INSTABILITIES TOO.The anatomical characteristics of the upper body make it almost UNDENIABLE that its rotation during the down swing takes place from its 'instantaneous screw axis of rotation', the spine. As such, for most of us 'full figured folks', in a geometric sense, well over 100 pounds is rotating around an axis NOT right in the center, BUT ON THE CENTER OF THE BACK.

So, just for an instant, picture a 50-100 sack of cement, potatoes, etc, with a broom handle or pipe attached on the back. Now stand the sack up vertically and picture it rotating up to 600 degrees a second ( 10 times every second) with the pole vertical and now mentally 'feel, yes SteveT, feel the centripetal force you have to resist to keep the pole vertical.

Now picture , and replace the sack with your true upper body, take your golf stance, and just picture and feel the HUGE task you have in consistently rotating the same way each time EVEN WHEN IN A SYMMETRIC MOVEMENT. Finally now, for reasons that vary greatly, throw your shoulders such that the upper body has more of its weight towards the ball, like an OTT move, and an ASYMMETRIC MOVEMENT.

Now can you see AND I HOPE FEEL the value of dynamic balance from the simple KIB part of BBKIB, as the rear shoulder is encouraged to also stay back for a while?

Yes, curtisJ76, as you so eloquently said, the "bumpy thingy" does come into this, and IMO fixes the many CAUSES, therefore eliminating much of the need for the complicated, and error filled EFFECTS.

And BOY, am I glad you asked,

Sincerely,
art
 
If there was a universal fix it would fall into two categories or patterns. The "Rickie Fowler" lay it off fast, stay bent over, jam the handle into your testicles tumble pattern. And the "Kenny Perry" cross the line, touch your forearms, stay back, stay closed , stay on your right heel, stay on top of the sweetspot pattern.

Another gem here Kevin. I've been working on my version of your review of the Kenny Perry pattern with some good results. The hardest thing for me is to stay back, not only away from the target, but also need to get the hips back to allow the arms/hands to stay in. Art's BBKIB helps. Don't have to go for the testicles so much either.
 
Right, last post from me before I head off on holiday.

Since starting this thread - I've been working with the idea that I'm coming OTT AND still standing the shaft up to accomplish a badly managed in-to-out, shallow path through impact.

I've been working hard on setting up square to closed, rather than open. And on retaining my backswing turn whilst the arms swing down from the top. Irons are much improved - but woods have been very streaky with some big, big misses.

The very last thing I tried at the range was to tackle the symptom rather than the cause. Instead of working on the transition - I thought only in terms of getting low hands at address and again at impact. You can't stand the shaft up with low hands, right?

The upshot, after a few balls, was probably the best I've ever consistently struck a 3 wood. Much higher trajectory - big hooks gone - mostly straight and some very manageable slight draws and fades. Driver now very straight - but I need something with a bit less loft than I've been playing.

So what gives? Normally, I'd want a couple of range sessions and some balls on the course before posting anything here. Anything can work for the time it takes to hit 50 balls.

But since I'm not going to hit balls for the next 2 weeks, I'd appreciate some comment on whether this basically "fits" with the pattern I've been describing.

Basically, what I think I'm asking is whether "low hands" is a valid way to sneak a better handpath and tumble into your swing? Or did I just find a lucky band-aid?
 

ej20

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I think some players are going to have highish impact hands come what may.It comes with the territory if you sweep release.

I hate to think what would happen to David Toms if someone taught him to get his hands as low as Sergio Garcia at impact.
 
Agreed. The knowledge that there are some very good ballstrikers with highish impact hands may have deterred me from looking at this before now.

But, in my case, I think that the intention of low hands indirectly sets up some other good things that I need.
 
I'd rather get low hands at impact than a perfect transition wit a bad hand path thru the ball

Can one get low hands at impact if they are too steep in transition? Are they related at all? It seems like my contact is much better if I can get the hands lower but maybe that is just a "feel".
 
If there was a universal fix it would fall into two categories or patterns. The "Rickie Fowler" lay it off fast, stay bent over, jam the handle into your testicles tumble pattern. And the "Kenny Perry" cross the line, touch your forearms, stay back, stay closed , stay on your right heel, stay on top of the sweetspot pattern.

Feel like Jwat and I are kindred spirits... I fight this big time. Kevin - if someone with the Kenny Perry pattern didn't stay back might we have a hosel to ball situation?
 
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