Breaking through my scoring comfort zone

[Brian Manzella]

Obviously technique is a factor. But if someone regularly shoots 42 on the front nine and 50 on the back, or 50 on the front nine and then 42 on the back. There is no technique reason why they can't shoot in the 80s. They just can't handle the pressure of shooting in the 80s (scoring barrier). It's the same reason why another guy plays well in a casual round but not in a tournament. Or a pga player plays well on thursday and friday but not on sunday afternoon. If they could regularly play well on thursday, their technique is obviously not the problem on sunday afternoon. Average Joe's not being able to break through a scoring barrier is just a mini version of the same thing.

Nerves are always a part of playing golf.

Heck, I choke EXACTLY THE SAME playing Golden Tee.

But, the point that Tom and I will make together, is that everyone "chokes" to some degree. And that includes Tiger.

Now before you jump on the Tiger comment, and say he makes all the putts he needs too, I have an answer to that as well:

He would make 95 of 100 of those in practice.

I remember playing the old CIty Park South Course and trying to break 60. I really wanted that 59. Well, eventually I did it twice.

BUT....

THE POINT IS, I "threw as many shots away" in the two 59's as any other good round. I had just gotten that good. Evidenced by the fact that my low rounds in New Orleans on the par-70 North Course (64), par-72 Pontchartrain Park (66), par-68 Old Audobon Park (62), were ALL shot during the same 18 month period.

I spent time with $200 an hour Sports Psychologists, and have read them all, seen Rotella, Coop, Pia Nielson and dozens of other mental coachs at seminars, and to me, the best thing to do is to do the following:

1. Find a good pattern for you and perfect it.

2. Find a good teacher to bounce your swing off of.

3. Play and practice everyday if possible.

4. Play as many different courses as you can.

5. Work on your short game a bunch.

6. Play in competitions were you play UP, play AT your level, and play DOWN.
​

Of course, you could just call Chris Sturgess and ask him what to do.

(Just kiddin' Chris)

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

Wow two 59s!!!! When are you joining the tour. Very impressive. Right now I can only dream of that.

 

[rsully]

Breaking the scoring barrier . . .

Thanks for the passionate feedback. I feel my game has come a long way, and I give Brian and this forum a lot of credit for that.


As Chris mentioned in his post, “ . . . if someone regularly shoots 42 on the front nine and 50 on the back, or 50 on the front nine and then 42 on the back. There is no technique reason why they can't shoot in the 80s.”
(Or low 80s, which is where I am trying to consistently get!)

That describes my game and what I seem to do, round after round, and I generally end-up 86-92 score. In fact, the last 10 rounds my low score was an 86 and my high was a 92, but I had 5 9’s with cores of 40 or less. It feels like every round has a different story, (driver, putter, approaches, chipping . . . ) but objectively, I strike the ball better than the guys I play with, but they score better!

Thus, I have decided to:

1 – Get a better understanding of my game as suggested by NWB. I have a vague idea of my strengths and weaknesses, but I have decided to really focus on understanding my game to a greater degree and keep track of my driver, approaches, GIR, putting, sand, etc.

2 – Try to get to the driving range to warm up prior to my round (sometimes I roll a triple on 1, a double on 2, and then I get it going)

3 – Get a better handle on my distance and club selection at the range, esp short game (I hit the driver reasonably long, so that is generally what I like to practice!)

4- Reconsider my putting technique (I currently use an open stance)

5- Forget the score and focus on the shot – sometime I do the opposite


Ron

 

[thefuture37]

to me, the best thing to do is to do the following:

1. Find a good pattern for you and perfect it.

2. Find a good teacher to bounce your swing off of.

3. Play and practice everyday if possible.

4. Play as many different courses as you can.

5. Work on your short game a bunch.

6. Play in competitions were you play UP, play AT your level, and play DOWN.
​

Have to disagree with the majority of those points. Tiger has fewer mental slip ups than anyone else not because he hits more balls than anyone, but because golf isn't the only thing going in his life. He has said how he didnt feel much pressure playing as a kid because he knew regardless of what happend, his parents would still be there for him. Contrast that with what Sean O'hair must've felt under his tyrant of a father. As Tiger has gotten more successful, the pressure surely must be decreasing, because his life has gotten fuller off the course. He will still have his family, charity work, and all his previous accomplishments even if he never wins again.

So to help your mental golf game, improve your life away from golf. If all you ever do is practice and play golf, then it becomes stressful when you face an important shot. You think to yourself, if I don't pull off this shot, then I have been wasting my time practicing so much. Every single shot becomes necessary to validate your practice.

If you can get to the point where you realize that golf is just a game(even for Tiger Woods), then you will stop overvaluing single golf shots in importance. This will lead to less stress on the course and (paradoxically) lower scores.

 

[tongzilla]

Tiger has fewer mental slip ups than anyone else not because he hits more balls than anyone, but because golf isn't the only thing going in his life. He has said how he didnt feel much pressure playing as a kid because he knew regardless of what happend, his parents would still be there for him. Contrast that with what Sean O'hair must've felt under his tyrant of a father. As Tiger has gotten more successful, the pressure surely must be decreasing, because his life has gotten fuller off the course. He will still have his family, charity work, and all his previous accomplishments even if he never wins again.

So to help your mental golf game, improve your life away from golf. If all you ever do is practice and play golf, then it becomes stressful when you face an important shot. You think to yourself, if I don't pull off this shot, then I have been wasting my time practicing so much. Every single shot becomes necessary to validate your practice.

If you can get to the point where you realize that golf is just a game(even for Tiger Woods), then you will stop overvaluing single golf shots in importance. This will lead to less stress on the course and (paradoxically) lower scores.

These posts really annoy me. When did Brian say Tiger is as good as he is today because he hit more balls than anyone? He didn't, and nor did he imply that.

I don't understand how you can create a causal relationship between a fuller life and less pressure on the course. That may be true but I doubt it accounts for more than 10% in the whole equation. I can even argue a fuller life leads to a worse golf game because you have less motivation to play your best when coming top-10 can pay the bills...and more.

To me, knowing where the ball will go leads to lower stress. I know golf is a game and I don't need to tell myself that. And in order to hit the ball where I want it to go I need to find my swing/pattern. In order to find my pattern I need to practice (reading forums and golf books doesn't lower scores, practicing/playing does).

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hmmm...

Leo,

You know, some folks forget this is MY forum.

For 1,000,000,000 damn good reasons.

 

[thefuture37]

I don't understand how you can create a causal relationship between a fuller life and less pressure on the course. That may be true but I doubt it accounts for more than 10% in the whole equation.

You contradicted yourself there. If the second sentence is true, then you do understand how I am relating the two concepts.

I can even argue a fuller life leads to a worse golf game because you have less motivation to play your best when coming top-10 can pay the bills...and more.

Just like everything else in life, the key is balance. Not 24/7/365 golf or just going through the motions playing, somewhere in between in ideal. Its not so much a matter of motivation, though. Its about giving 100% effort when you are playing, and accepting that sometimes thats not good enough.

To me, knowing where the ball will go leads to lower stress. I know golf is a game and I don't need to tell myself that. And in order to hit the ball where I want it to go I need to find my swing/pattern. In order to find my pattern I need to practice (reading forums and golf books doesn't lower scores, practicing/playing does).

You describe the player who scores well when everything is going ok. But then when they hit one loose shot(i.e. they dont know where the ball is going on that shot), they get stressed and never recover from it.

 

[holeout]

So to help your mental golf game, improve your life away from golf. If all you ever do is practice and play golf, then it becomes stressful when you face an important shot. You think to yourself, if I don't pull off this shot, then I have been wasting my time practicing so much. Every single shot becomes necessary to validate your practice.

If you can get to the point where you realize that golf is just a game(even for Tiger Woods), then you will stop overvaluing single golf shots in importance. This will lead to less stress on the course and (paradoxically) lower scores.

How much tournament golf experience do you have?

 

[thefuture37]

How much tournament golf experience do you have?

as much as bob rotella. and yourself?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You never admitted you were wrong when you so clearly were in the discussion we had about shanking where you thought the only way people shank was with an open clubface.

I'll just be as brash as you and say that you're wrong. It is READILY apparent that you like to hear (or in this case see typed) what it is you want to hear.

The reason people shank is because they are doing what we call the concept of "lagging the hosel." Which is replacing the feel of the sweetspot with the hosel in the downswing. You think you are bringing the sweetspot to the ball thus you don't change anything and then CLANK.

THAT'S IT, no more mysteriousness about it.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Yeah, I am aware of what "lagging the hosel" is. The point I am making that neither you nor Brian are aware of or would admit to with in that thread is that many shanks occur with a square clubface. You all were under the impression that a shank only occurs with an open clubface. You can type in all caps all you want but that doesn't change the reality of that.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Nerves are always a part of playing golf.

Heck, I choke EXACTLY THE SAME playing Golden Tee.

Then you have a bad mental game playing golden tee too.

Nerves? What do you think that term really means? Elaborate. Does Tiger have more or less "nerves" than other people? Does "nerves" mean a physical neurological disorder that some people are afflicted with? Or does it affect everyone equally? Or is not actually a physical thing but mental thoughts that bring the whole thing on?

But, the point that Tom and I will make together, is that everyone "chokes" to some degree. And that includes Tiger.

Now before you jump on the Tiger comment, and say he makes all the putts he needs too, I have an answer to that as well:

He would make 95 of 100 of those in practice.

Tiger chokes less than other people. He plays as well or even better when it matters than he does in practice. Other people play much worse than they do in practice when it matters. Whatever level of golf Tiger Woods is capable of, he plays to that level when it matters. Whatever level of golf most other people are capable of, they play much worse than that level when it matters usually. Sometimes ridiculously worse. How many times have you seen a guy with an important putt just pathetically decelerate on it, or other situations etc. It's because they have bad mental games and Tiger doesn't. Whatever level of Golden Tee ability you have, when you don't play up to that level when it matters it's because you have a bad mental game. You should at least be able to play up to your normal ability in a pressure packed golden tee situation. You and Tom are totally wrong here. To someone who is unbiased that is really obvious. It will be interesting to see if you guys can admit it though, you know since you are better at admitting you're wrong than EVERY OTHER teacher.

 

[welshdentist]

Then you have a bad mental game playing golden tee too.

Nerves? What do you think that term really means? Elaborate. Does Tiger have more or less "nerves" than other people? Does "nerves" mean a physical neurological disorder that some people are afflicted with? Or does it affect everyone equally? Or is not actually a physical thing but mental thoughts that bring the whole thing on?



Tiger chokes less than other people. He plays as well or even better when it matters than he does in practice. Other people play much worse than they do in practice when it matters. Whatever level of golf Tiger Woods is capable of, he plays to that level when it matters. Whatever level of golf most other people are capable of, they play much worse than that level when it matters usually. Sometimes ridiculously worse. How many times have you seen a guy with an important putt just pathetically decelerate on it, or other situations etc. It's because they have bad mental games and Tiger doesn't. Whatever level of Golden Tee ability you have, when you don't play up to that level when it matters it's because you have a bad mental game. You should at least be able to play up to your normal ability in a pressure packed golden tee situation. You and Tom are totally wrong here. To someone who is unbiased that is really obvious. It will be interesting to see if you guys can admit it though, you know since you are better at admitting you're wrong than EVERY OTHER teacher.

I know my wife is terrible in playing casual golf. Yet no matter how bad she is playing she will rarely EVER shoot more than a few over.......when it MATTERS

That's an interesting one......

One of those magic things that great players do I guess, pull it out of the bag when it matters, when it goes the other way for the rest of us...

(She's won a British Title so I am putting her up there as great, biased as I am )

 

[pecky987]

Then you have a bad mental game playing golden tee too.

Nerves? What do you think that term really means? Elaborate. Does Tiger have more or less "nerves" than other people? Does "nerves" mean a physical neurological disorder that some people are afflicted with? Or does it affect everyone equally? Or is not actually a physical thing but mental thoughts that bring the whole thing on?



Tiger chokes less than other people. He plays as well or even better when it matters than he does in practice. Other people play much worse than they do in practice when it matters. Whatever level of golf Tiger Woods is capable of, he plays to that level when it matters. Whatever level of golf most other people are capable of, they play much worse than that level when it matters usually. Sometimes ridiculously worse. How many times have you seen a guy with an important putt just pathetically decelerate on it, or other situations etc. It's because they have bad mental games and Tiger doesn't. Whatever level of Golden Tee ability you have, when you don't play up to that level when it matters it's because you have a bad mental game. You should at least be able to play up to your normal ability in a pressure packed golden tee situation. You and Tom are totally wrong here. To someone who is unbiased that is really obvious. It will be interesting to see if you guys can admit it though, you know since you are better at admitting you're wrong than EVERY OTHER teacher.

tiger admits that he feels nervous, he just doesnt show it on the outside.

some people just simply cope better with nerves then others. when we watched the open at carnoustie, and the play off betwen padraig and sergio, we were in our clubhouse (there had been a medal that sunday) and sat next to me was a man who works with the regional junior and senior teams. he has also worked with touring professionals, and the best amateurs in the country (if anyone britsh has heard of Steve Uzzel you'll know what im talking about).

he put it best i think when talking about how good plyers deal with nerves and pressure.

"the best just go into auto-mode"

padraig has obviously got a great mental game. whether that has to do with Rotella or not aint important. sergio doesnt.

the best coper-with-nerves players just go into auto mode and sorta clear their minds of thought of doubt and fear, whereas people who dont cope as well let thoughts of failure and consequence slip into their minds.

the best tip i could give to someone looking to improve their mental game would be think only of the shot. if its a pressure tee shot, pick a target in the distance and think ONLY of that. not swing thoughts, not "i've got to keep right arm above left in takeaway" or anything technical. just the target.

if its an approach shot where you have to hit the green, pick your place on the green where you want to land it, or a target in the distance (a branch on a tree or a cloud) and think solely on that.

where you get most nervous usually is on the green and putting. on a pressure putt, dont think of the consequences. dont think how everyone will take it if you win, or how you'll feel if you lose. think just about the putt. think about the line, the pace and nothing else.

and btw chris, on a subject like this, i dont think you can ever say someone is just plain "wrong"

 

[holeout]

as much as bob rotella. and yourself?

I've got 18 under my belt so far this year. It looks like about 6 more left before the end of the season.

 

[nwb]

Thanks for the passionate feedback. I feel my game has come a long way, and I give Brian and this forum a lot of credit for that.


As Chris mentioned in his post, “ . . . if someone regularly shoots 42 on the front nine and 50 on the back, or 50 on the front nine and then 42 on the back. There is no technique reason why they can't shoot in the 80s.”
(Or low 80s, which is where I am trying to consistently get!)

That describes my game and what I seem to do, round after round, and I generally end-up 86-92 score. In fact, the last 10 rounds my low score was an 86 and my high was a 92, but I had 5 9’s with cores of 40 or less. It feels like every round has a different story, (driver, putter, approaches, chipping . . . ) but objectively, I strike the ball better than the guys I play with, but they score better!

My own personal opinion (could be wrong!) is that if someone shoots 42 on one 9 and 50 on another it is a technique issue more than mental. To explain what i mean by that i'll start by saying my whole golf philosophy is geared around making my bad shots better. During a round i have ups and downs, sometimes super hot (my 2 under back 9 last week), sometimes cold, (my 5 over front!). I think when timing is on you can play with a bad technique and score a 42 say. When timing is off you score your 50. What i was trying to say that to break scoring barriers, i think you need to refine that technique to get you to the next level where your bad shots are that much better. Rsully - glad you are going to keep stats - good luck!

NWB

 

[Deadly_Scope]

I generally think people have poor mental games just simply because they don't realise they can program responces.

Say that you shank one at right angles, chances are you would get mad at yourself... replay that in your mind and program your brain to associate that image with something relaxing and peaceful... my personal image is to think of the leaves of a palm tree blowing in the wind but whatever works for you is fine.

I've gotten so good at this I could hit the worse round I am capable and still wouldn't bring me into a negative state just by using this technique.

Egotism is a big part of golf and I used to think more about how people perceived me than on my playing. Again sit down and associate people watching you with a positive responce no matter the outcome.

I think Moe Norman said it best - Learn to behave people, learn to behave.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah, I am aware of what "lagging the hosel" is. The point I am making that neither you nor Brian are aware of or would admit to with in that thread is that many shanks occur with a square clubface. You all were under the impression that a shank only occurs with an open clubface. You can type in all caps all you want but that doesn't change the reality of that.

I blew up your uninformed idea in my LIVE show this week.

 

[MrMichael]

Wow two 59s!!!! When are you joining the tour. Very impressive. Right now I can only dream of that.

I have had one 59 before but I did much better on the back nine.

 

[puttmad]

Great post Tom,

I enjoyed that...