curtisj76
New
So what was the book? I doubt Brian cares, he's not in the "mental business".
Breaking through my scoring comfort zone
- Thread starter rsully
- Start date
- Status
So what was the book? I doubt Brian cares, he's not in the "mental business".
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
Serenity now
Chris,
I have no problem when someone disagrees with me on a matter of OPINION, but when they start with insults that's when I get toasted.
Let's remember, I tried to give someone some advice and YOU started in with personal attacks against me. And you haven't stopped. And now you are insulting all other forum members. STOP IT! If you can discuss things in a proper manner then that's fine. If you don't know the difference...
We'll try this again. Here is the original post.
He got Brian's DVDs and improved. He has now Leveled off (not improving anymore with just the DVDs)
He doesn't think he is scoring the way he should be. Who does? almost nobody, because they don't have a realistic grasp of their game. This is where the instructor is invaluable.
You were under the assumption that he has good front nines and then has "choking " back nines. Where he stated that front or bad can be a poor score. Just like most people. How many people that are 80 shooters shoot 40-40. Almost never, that's golf, a lot of variables.
His last round he had some three putts that PUSHED his score back up into his "zone". But he averages in the mid to high 80s. That's a pretty good grouping of scores for someone with mental issues.
Some days it is his driver while others it is his approaches and as he stated some days his putting. That's why he is a mid to high 80s shooter. If everything were a little better he would be a low to mid 80s shooter.
If he had said, " I shoot in the mid to high 80s but, when I play in money games or in tournaments I suddenly shoot in the mid to high nineties" then you could claim choking. But, he didn't. He just wants to shoot lower scores. He improved as much as HE can with Brian's DVDs. I guarantee if he takes lessons with Brian he would see even more improvement.
And I still disagree that any kind of mental work will improve ones game. For example; A tour player (since that is what you want to compare everything to) shoots 67-68 on Thursday and Friday but on the weekends shoots 72-73. He works with a shrink and starts shooting his 67s and 68s on the weekend. The shrink didn't improve his game. The guy was already capable of shooting them.
If you know of some other way of making someone a better golfer without improving driving, irons, chipping ,pitching, putting let me know. I'll get on board with you and we'll make millions. Course management doesn't count, that's not mental, that's knowing your abilities and how the game is played.
Chris,
I have no problem when someone disagrees with me on a matter of OPINION, but when they start with insults that's when I get toasted.
Let's remember, I tried to give someone some advice and YOU started in with personal attacks against me. And you haven't stopped. And now you are insulting all other forum members. STOP IT! If you can discuss things in a proper manner then that's fine. If you don't know the difference...
We'll try this again. Here is the original post.
He got Brian's DVDs and improved. He has now Leveled off (not improving anymore with just the DVDs)
He doesn't think he is scoring the way he should be. Who does? almost nobody, because they don't have a realistic grasp of their game. This is where the instructor is invaluable.
You were under the assumption that he has good front nines and then has "choking " back nines. Where he stated that front or bad can be a poor score. Just like most people. How many people that are 80 shooters shoot 40-40. Almost never, that's golf, a lot of variables.
His last round he had some three putts that PUSHED his score back up into his "zone". But he averages in the mid to high 80s. That's a pretty good grouping of scores for someone with mental issues.
Some days it is his driver while others it is his approaches and as he stated some days his putting. That's why he is a mid to high 80s shooter. If everything were a little better he would be a low to mid 80s shooter.
If he had said, " I shoot in the mid to high 80s but, when I play in money games or in tournaments I suddenly shoot in the mid to high nineties" then you could claim choking. But, he didn't. He just wants to shoot lower scores. He improved as much as HE can with Brian's DVDs. I guarantee if he takes lessons with Brian he would see even more improvement.
And I still disagree that any kind of mental work will improve ones game. For example; A tour player (since that is what you want to compare everything to) shoots 67-68 on Thursday and Friday but on the weekends shoots 72-73. He works with a shrink and starts shooting his 67s and 68s on the weekend. The shrink didn't improve his game. The guy was already capable of shooting them.
If you know of some other way of making someone a better golfer without improving driving, irons, chipping ,pitching, putting let me know. I'll get on board with you and we'll make millions. Course management doesn't count, that's not mental, that's knowing your abilities and how the game is played.
Tom, I can't quite make sense of this. You say that mental work will not improve one's game. Then you go on to say that a tour pro's scores on the weekend could improve, but that doesn't reflect any kind of "game improvement" because he was already capable of shooting those scores. But did his scores not improve? If he went from shooting 8 under par (with a weekend of 1 over) to 15 under par (after a weekend of 6 under) for the tournament, I'd say they did.
You've made the point that someone who usually shoots around 80 very rarely has nines of 40-40. Let's say it's typically something like 37-43 or 42-38. Well, would it be unreasonable to think that this person is capable of shooting 74 then? He's already capable of shooting 37 for nine holes right? The difference between a tour player being unable follow up 134 on the first 36 with something under 144 or 145 on the weekend, and the handicap player being unable to follow up a 37 on the front with anything better than 43 or 44 on the back nine, is almost nil.
And I'm not sure why course management doesn't count. All we're concerned about here is shooting a good score. Course management definitely counts.
Last edited:
Tom,
I guess that is the point...
Some people just need someone to help them unlock what they are capable of.
Curtis,
I don't know if Brian would agree. I've been around the forum long enough, and I am not going to disrespect the guy that bends over backwards for all of us.
Last edited:
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
Tom, I can't quite make sense of this. You say that mental work will not improve one's game. Then you go on to say that a tour pro's scores on the weekend could improve, but that doesn't reflect any kind of "game improvement" because he was already capable of shooting those scores. But did his scores not improve? If he went from shooting 8 under par (with a weekend of 1 over) to 15 under par (after a weekend of 6 under) for the tournament, I'd say they did.
O.K. you don't like the word game. Call it what you want. he shoots 67s and 68s already. The shrink didn't make him shoot 63s and 64s. Get it?
Again, my point that rsully shoots mid to high 80s. He said he improved and then hit a wall. Which means he was shooting scores higher then that and improved with video instruction. I don't think any kind if mental coaching is going to get him in the 70s. Do you?
You've made the point that someone who usually shoots around 80 very rarely has nines of 40-40. Let's say it's typically something like 37-43 or 42-38. Well, would it be unreasonable to think that this person is capable of shooting 74 then?
Sure it is! I never said someone couldn't have a great round. Al Geiberger shot 59 but he didn't average that. If you are going to say that, then if you have ever made a birdie on a hole then you should be able to birdie every hole.
He's already capable of shooting 37 for nine holes right? The difference between a tour player being unable follow up 134 on the first 36 with something under 144 or 145 on the weekend, and the handicap player being unable to follow up a 37 on the front with anything better than 43 or 44 on the back nine, is almost nil.
No tour players do that on a regular basis it was an example. Again, never said someone couldn't "click" on any given day. But, the reason they shoot those scores is because their mechanics aren't those of a 74 shooter. Also don't get confused I used the term 80 shooter but that is an average score. An 80 shooter is going to shoot anywhere from 76 to 84. So, why couldn't he make a couple of putts one day and shoot 74?
And I'm not sure why course management doesn't count. All we're concerned about here is shooting a good score. Course management definitely counts.
I don't consider course management to be the mental part of golf like we are discussing. Of course, I haven't seen one person that wouldn't benefit from knowing there limitations and knowing percentages.
O.K. you don't like the word game. Call it what you want. he shoots 67s and 68s already. The shrink didn't make him shoot 63s and 64s. Get it?
Again, my point that rsully shoots mid to high 80s. He said he improved and then hit a wall. Which means he was shooting scores higher then that and improved with video instruction. I don't think any kind if mental coaching is going to get him in the 70s. Do you?
You've made the point that someone who usually shoots around 80 very rarely has nines of 40-40. Let's say it's typically something like 37-43 or 42-38. Well, would it be unreasonable to think that this person is capable of shooting 74 then?
Sure it is! I never said someone couldn't have a great round. Al Geiberger shot 59 but he didn't average that. If you are going to say that, then if you have ever made a birdie on a hole then you should be able to birdie every hole.
He's already capable of shooting 37 for nine holes right? The difference between a tour player being unable follow up 134 on the first 36 with something under 144 or 145 on the weekend, and the handicap player being unable to follow up a 37 on the front with anything better than 43 or 44 on the back nine, is almost nil.
No tour players do that on a regular basis it was an example. Again, never said someone couldn't "click" on any given day. But, the reason they shoot those scores is because their mechanics aren't those of a 74 shooter. Also don't get confused I used the term 80 shooter but that is an average score. An 80 shooter is going to shoot anywhere from 76 to 84. So, why couldn't he make a couple of putts one day and shoot 74?
And I'm not sure why course management doesn't count. All we're concerned about here is shooting a good score. Course management definitely counts.
I don't consider course management to be the mental part of golf like we are discussing. Of course, I haven't seen one person that wouldn't benefit from knowing there limitations and knowing percentages.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
O.K. I've got to know.
How does everyone here think you improve...go from shooting in the 100s to the 90s...from the 90s to the 80s...from the 80s to the 70s?
I really do want to know everyone's opinion.
Are most forum members here at The Brian Manzella Golf Academy to improve their swings to shoot lower scores, or for help with their mental game?
How does everyone here think you improve...go from shooting in the 100s to the 90s...from the 90s to the 80s...from the 80s to the 70s?
I really do want to know everyone's opinion.
Are most forum members here at The Brian Manzella Golf Academy to improve their swings to shoot lower scores, or for help with their mental game?
Tom,
I think I see your point now.
However, I'd like to know why you don't consider course management a mental game skill. At the very least, one's ability to make clear-headed decisions at crucial moments in a round or tournament can be connected to their ability to handle the pressure of that moment.
Greg Norman would be a shining example of a guy who was never very good at this.
I think I see your point now.
However, I'd like to know why you don't consider course management a mental game skill. At the very least, one's ability to make clear-headed decisions at crucial moments in a round or tournament can be connected to their ability to handle the pressure of that moment.
Greg Norman would be a shining example of a guy who was never very good at this.
the way i see it is this.
you cant change a high 80 shooter to a mid 70 shooter on mental game alone. period.
the mechanics aren't good enough. he needs to improve his driving, iron play, putting etc
BUT you can definately improve someone by improving his mental game. i always had a terrible mental game. i would beat myself up so bad after one bad hole and the round would be a write-off.
i now have an improved mental approach and am calmer when things dont go as well.
you can absolutely make someones game by making them a better mental player. making them cope pressure 6 footers for par better or making them handle a tough tee shot better.
but that can only go so far. they will need to improve there mechanics to improve their game much more
you cant change a high 80 shooter to a mid 70 shooter on mental game alone. period.
the mechanics aren't good enough. he needs to improve his driving, iron play, putting etc
BUT you can definately improve someone by improving his mental game. i always had a terrible mental game. i would beat myself up so bad after one bad hole and the round would be a write-off.
i now have an improved mental approach and am calmer when things dont go as well.
you can absolutely make someones game by making them a better mental player. making them cope pressure 6 footers for par better or making them handle a tough tee shot better.
but that can only go so far. they will need to improve there mechanics to improve their game much more
Gday Tom, I am in the 90's-80's camp, and after following this group plus buying a couple of Brians video's, I now have a much better understanding of how I am actually supposed to go about hitting that little white ball
so I come here to improve my swing, and have done by the way Cheers Ray.
entertainment
Mental game i feel it gets better with confidence in your own technique . Simple commit to the shot you want to play and execute. Results take care of themselves and if they don't focus on the next shot.They are both important ..all good players will know this
For me (100 to 90), it's just a matter of playing more, and learning what works for me. I stopped worrying about the swing itself, and began to focus on what the ballflight looks like. Perfect example: I was at the range the other day, and ended up hitting in the stall next to what appeared to be a pretty decent striker. Instead of trying to copy his swing, I started trying to get my ball to fly like his. It helped, because it made me focus not on positions, but on doing what Will's body needed to do to make the ball fly "right".
One day, I'm looking to play/hit balls with a very low handicap (scratch or better) player, who is a good ballstriker. I think that will really help me with having a target to shoot for besides score. That will come with more course/range time.
My improvement has come from better ball contact - period.
Better ball contact equals - longer, straighter, consistent shots. Playing from the fairway and putting for bridies.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Where did I say any of this? My post was meant to illustrate my opinion that you can hit good shots while choking and hit bad shots with the best mental outlook ever. Nobody, even you, knows why people choke or underperform under pressure. All i know is the best anti choke tool or course manager is a good ball flight and putts that go where you look.
BTW, for someone who isn't concerned with credibilty, you seem rather preoccupied with my inabiltity to make the PGA Tour. So what? You think it's easy? Maybe I ran out of money. Had kids. Herniated discs? Or maybe it's just pretty effin' hard to grab one of 30 spots a year.So simple for someone to sit behind a desk and attack people. How could you possibly sit there and speak intelligently about why the world's best players choke? You have no idea and neither does anybody else. Only the person pulling the trigger knows his/her mental makeup.
Chris Sturgess
New member
Hahaha
benhogan55
New
Here is another contrarian
Hey Tom - this is my first post and I remember I heard something from Lee Trevino about this very subject - Lee's exact words were "The hardest thing to do in golf is take the range to the course" - - isn't it safe to assume that mentally we are comfortable at the range because we are not riding a score on every shot? If we thin or fat that same 8 iron, we can roll up another ball and try it again? How many times have you seen someone hit a bad shot (on the course), drop a ball and hit a perfect shot? Or snap a driver out of bounds, re-tee and kill one down the middle? The pressure is off of them to perform after not hitting the first ball as well as they do on the range - I think in golf how we approach a shot (mentally) will either allow or prohibit our body as far as hitting the shot we know we can hit on the range - Does that make sense? I am the king of the range - I can hit 'em low, high, draw, cut at will on the range - a little different to pull that shot out of the bag on the course, in my opinion - do you think I'm totally off base here?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
i'm kind of neutral with all thise....
people hit it better at the range because they dont realize where they are aiming for one (as tom said) and two there is no pressure, no consequence for when you hit a bad shot.
take those two things on the course (importance of aim and consequence of hitting a bad shot) and the mental confidence goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down and thus so will your ability to hit certain shots.
happens in almost every sport really; once your confidence is shot everything becomes much more difficult. from my experience, your brain is a very powerful tool in golf, the more you can let it do what it wants and stay out of its way the better your shots will become; with the correct kind of practice of course.
people hit it better at the range because they dont realize where they are aiming for one (as tom said) and two there is no pressure, no consequence for when you hit a bad shot.
take those two things on the course (importance of aim and consequence of hitting a bad shot) and the mental confidence goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down and thus so will your ability to hit certain shots.
happens in almost every sport really; once your confidence is shot everything becomes much more difficult. from my experience, your brain is a very powerful tool in golf, the more you can let it do what it wants and stay out of its way the better your shots will become; with the correct kind of practice of course.
When I am at the range, I only hit to specific targets (greens, buckets, dead grass, nets) and I do everything I would do on the course as far as a pre shot routine - my practicing is as course like as I can make it as far as picking out intermediate targets, picturing the shot I'm trying to hit, practice swing, address, stance, waggle, go - On the course because of the actual shot counting as a score, it's tougher to duplicate how relaxed we all are when we practice - the best round of my life is 72 and I was as relaxed as I could have been on that day - every shot I hit was stellar - it just doesn't happen very often on the course - I need to try to find a way to reproduce my range swing over the ball when I'm on the course - I have gone from a 28 handicap to a very solid 12 (with several rounds in the 70's) on courses with 130+ slopes from the tips but I would be the first to admit that I need to try to find the relaxed mental approach to a shot that "counts" on the course - Any suggestions?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
specific target practice is great if you are aimed correctly. I spent 40 minutes with a friend at the range on just getting him to aim correctly and it fixed a bunch in his swing because he was aimed way left and he was un-knowingly trying to save the shot by swinging way inside out and thus ended up well left of target consistently. It took a lot of work to get him to aim at the flag or even right of the flag.
Almost instantly his extreme inside/out path was fixed, now this is a much better player than your average amatuer and this won't be the cure all for everyone but it gets to Tom's point. Unless this person aimed that far off when he actually played, he'd miss greens consistently.
I think of instead of trying to figure out how to create the same relaxed mental state on the course of at the range, create the same pressure on the course at the range. IMO that might create better results. If you have no consequence of your action at the range, it's hard to create the pressure.
Almost instantly his extreme inside/out path was fixed, now this is a much better player than your average amatuer and this won't be the cure all for everyone but it gets to Tom's point. Unless this person aimed that far off when he actually played, he'd miss greens consistently.
I think of instead of trying to figure out how to create the same relaxed mental state on the course of at the range, create the same pressure on the course at the range. IMO that might create better results. If you have no consequence of your action at the range, it's hard to create the pressure.
There are times when I am practicing that I will get the score card for that course and play the course on the range - I aim at imaginary fairways and I hit my irons into the actual green or chip/pitch to a target - what would be the best way in your opinion to create course pressure on the range? This would be a key for me to help me on the course - suggestions?
- Status