Calvin Peete Analysis (now w/ a page 18 blog post by Brian Manzella)

[gmbtempe]

Pretty cool little model.....question for you.....

Given that the science basically says that the clubhead functions essentially as "free from" the shaft at some point....and there are different amounts of having the face laying on the plane....at what point does the golfer need to have the face rolled off the plane the correct amount prior to the clubhead "freeing itself" from the golfer's control?

Also, is there an amount of "openness" that is preferred? Or is that depends on other variables? But let's assume that we aren't trying to hit big curves either way...

really good questions there.

 

[gmbtempe]

Greg, hold your left hand in front of you and arch your wrist. It opens like a door. I can't see how anyone can't see that. How you maneuver the face in your grip and turn your arm is independent of the act of arching your wrist. That move opens the face and delofts it.

I think I see your point with just a strict sense of the movement.

 

[ZAP]

This discussion is strange to me. Seems like unless there is rotation about the shaft the club cannot close arching the wrist. I also kind of wonder what Calvin Petes trackman numbers might look like.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I invite anyone with a "decent" move to go out and bow the lead wrist through impact. If you do it, the ball will go right for right handers and left for left handers. You have to roll the knuckles under or palm up with lead hand to close it. That is TWISTING it closed. Anyone and I mean anyone, who has worked enough on their swing will know this. Its like golf mechanics stage 1. It gets tiresome seeing people argue semantics. Obviously, Brian and Kevin are correct. In playing terms, with good impact alignments, the only way to open and close the face is by twisting the shaft about itself which EVERYONE does. Arguments about literal definitions can ultimately stall progress. Just be real and speak or write clearly.

 

[TeeAce]

Not that simple. It can do both, depending of path.

At least I can say I was right here

 

[dschultz6072]

What a, excuse my language, retarded argument. Even I, someone who has been playing golf for a year and a half, understands the concept of twisting the shaft versus hinging the wrist a la a door.

 

[BobH]

OK, so just so we are clear, on the left, the left wrist is cupped and the clubface is shut, and on the right, the left wrist is bowed and the clubface has opened? Got it.

 

[BertramSterling]

I invite anyone with a "decent" move to go out and bow the lead wrist through impact. If you do it, the ball will go right for right handers and left for left handers. You have to roll the knuckles under or palm up with lead hand to close it. That is TWISTING it closed. Anyone and I mean anyone, who has worked enough on their swing will know this. Its like golf mechanics stage 1. It gets tiresome seeing people argue semantics. Obviously, Brian and Kevin are correct. In playing terms, with good impact alignments, the only way to open and close the face is by twisting the shaft about itself which EVERYONE does. Arguments about literal definitions can ultimately stall progress. Just be real and speak or write clearly.

Agree - trying this move as described by Hogan in five lessons resulted in a few balls O.B. right for me, which confused me at the time

 

[ZAP]

Unbelievable.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I do not bother any more with microscale phenomena but I remember there was a great thread long time ago on wrx about this very problem. I'll try to renew the ideas. First, I do not care about any other relations of a clubface than its relation to the swing arc. In this sense, the clubface must be always open at the top, no matter what happens, due to biomechanical reasons. A hypothetical square-to-the-arc clubface position at the top is when the clubface is pointing EAST assuming we are facing NORTH. of course, it is not possible to arrive there due to the elbow joint limited motion.

Let's use simple notions WEST, NORTH, EAST, SOUTH. Let's assume that a RH golfer faces NORTH at setup while the target is located WEST. Let's now analyze some time frames of a swing motion:

- the top: it does not matter if the face points more to the sky or less - this is delofting/adding loft phenomenon that has nothing to do with openness of the face because it happens in another axis; the very face can point NORTH-EAST, NORTH and NORTH-WEST;
NE - when a golfer is ATL;
N - when a golfer is between ATL and laid-off;
NW - when a golfer is laid-off.
The more the clubface orientation is to the EAST direction (reminder: we're taking about the top now) the closer it is to be square to the arc, i.e. less open. Cupping the lead wrist (dorsi flexion) makes the clubhead go in the ATL direction, therefore, it shifts to a less open position;

- the position of Hogan on the left picture Bob posted; Hogan's lead wrist is still dorsi flexed and points somehow NORTH; if we imagine his wrist be bowed (palmarily flexed) the clubface would point EAST or NORTH-EAST - which means more open than NORTH (reminder: we are not at the top any more and now coming into impact zone; anything tending more to WEST is squarer to the arc = less open). From EAST to WEST we need to go through NORTH, of course;

- it means that Hogan, when going from cupped to bowed, kept his clubhace open to the swing arc more effectively than in case he kept his lead wrist unchangeably flat all the time. It might have been his real secret - not the very phenomenon of cupped lead wrist at the top but exactly the process of uncupping (cupped to bowed) that simply must have happened (unintentionally - subconscious mind guarantees it) because otherwise he would have missed the ball and swung half a meter above it.

Here is more or less the thought process that I patricipated some years ago. Now, if you find something interesting here - just discuss or negate it.

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

I attended a PGA Summit at the Superdome , at which Jimmy Ballard was one of the presenters. He talked about a club being shut at the top, and demonstrated by bowing. Ben Doyle raised his hand, and took the mike; `Mr Ballard, if you would assume the bowed position at the top, then keeping your wrist as it is, bring your arms back down to the ball.' Sure enough, when he did that the face was open. The dialogue disintegrated into less than kind words, after that, but Mr. Doyle's point was made to those with an open mind. Brian, I'm sure you remember the transaction, as I recall you were sitting next to Ben.

Yes, I was there.

You did a great job of recalling it exactly as it happened.

Ben made his point, and Jimmy was oh-and-1—in person—against a guy he always criticized.

In order to bow or cup AND keep the face AND grip in the same place you have to twist the shaft, no? At that point it seems to me there are more moves occuring than pure bowing or pure cupping.

Yes and no.

But down by the ball, with an absence of left arm rotation and left wrist cock, it is totally different.

Yes there is, but they are results of bowing and cupping. The shaft get twisted if you bow the wrist. The main point is still if the face is more closed or open at the same point if one of those made.

We are not talking about having them at the same point.

Get it?

Got it?

Hear what I am saying?

No?

Didn't think so.

In the forces and toque science that we study, there is ALPHA—in the plane of the club, BETA—the pitch of the club, and GAMMA—in the twist about the shaft plane of motion.

This is a much more accurate way to TEACH the movements that you like to measure.

We like it much better than wrist conditions, which are quite subject to grips.

Pretty cool little model.....question for you.....

Given that the science basically says that the clubhead functions essentially as "free from" the shaft at some point....and there are different amounts of having the face laying on the plane....at what point does the golfer need to have the face rolled off the plane the correct amount prior to the clubhead "freeing itself" from the golfer's control?

Also, is there an amount of "openness" that is preferred? Or is that depends on other variables? But let's assume that we aren't trying to hit big curves either way...

Great question. This is where our current research is concentrating.

I will include what we know now in me and Mike Jacobs' upcoming Release Aftermath video.

I think I see your point with just a strict sense of the movement.

That's all we are talking about.

I invite anyone with a "decent" move to go out and bow the lead wrist through impact. If you do it, the ball will go right for right handers and left for left handers. You have to roll the knuckles under or palm up with lead hand to close it. That is TWISTING it closed. Anyone and I mean anyone, who has worked enough on their swing will know this. Its like golf mechanics stage 1. It gets tiresome seeing people argue semantics. Obviously, Brian and Kevin are correct. In playing terms, with good impact alignments, the only way to open and close the face is by twisting the shaft about itself which EVERYONE does. Arguments about literal definitions can ultimately stall progress. Just be real and speak or write clearly.

Well, that's is the problem.

Can you find golf researchers who can actually hit Tour quality shots?

If you find them, are they willing to potentially wreck there game at least temporarily?

We have quite a few.

What a, excuse my language, retarded argument. Even me, someone who has been playing golf for a year and a half, understands the concept of twisting the shaft versus hinging the wrist a la a door.

Alpha vs. Gamma.

Just like I've been saying.

Unbelievable.

Nah, on purpose.

 

[bcoak]

Brian
David Toms does something with his wrist as his first move down. What is he doing? Hope he has another great year. He is fun to watch, especially putt

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian
David Toms does something with his wrist as his first move down. What is he doing? Hope he has another great year. He is fun to watch, especially putt

David applies a gamma torque early in his downswing, very slightly arching his wrist.

He does it MUCH less than he did earlier in his career.

Interestingly to this discussion, David INCREASES THE ARCH in his left wrist the whole way down, that according to the protagonists "closes" the face more and more and more pre-impact.

David hits a slight fade or a straight ball.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

At this point, Peete's clubface cannot be open, so there is no "high rate of closure" from there to impact.

I'm in a similar position here and any more "closure" will lead to a smother hook.

I do not agree or how could I?

I cannot see a 3 dimensional view which would include shaft position as it relates to the face coming into impact. A steep shaft would indeed indicate one thing and a shallow shaft angle would indicate something entirely different.

That may be where your understanding of face positions gets blurred.

The face and shaft are married, you cannot possible know what the face is doing without understanding the position of the shaft or it's motion. That is why your still pictures have zero merit.

 

[ZAP]

The problem as I see it is for those of us who are here to learn from Brian and his team. For myself I do not know who any of these people are who have a "horse in the race" as they say. All of these "discussions" really do help a novice like me to understand some of the concepts though so they are not all bad.

 

[Kevin Shields]

OK, so just so we are clear, on the left, the left wrist is cupped and the clubface is shut, and on the right, the left wrist is bowed and the clubface has opened? Got it.

Totally ridiculous post, "Bob."

 

[Kevin Shields]

Really?

Thank you for making my point.

 

[ej20]

Gotta agree with Brian and Kevin here.

The demonstration by TeeAce shown above clearly shows he has twisted the shaft counter clockwise when he went from cupped to arched.

If he was wearing a watch on his left hand,the watch face would be pointing at the camera when his left wrist is cupped.It would be pointing at the target when his left wrist is arched.He has clearly twisted the club in order to shut the face.Arching alone does not shut the face.

However,you could argue that in a real golf swing,you need to rotate the left forearm counter clockwise in order to facilitate the arching of the left wrist.

 

[magicmarker]

indeed he did prove your point.

it's all in the logo on the grip. teeace you have to keep that variable constant because this whole debate started when Kevin said "arching the left wrist ALONE opens the face, not closes it." which you took issue with.

 

[dschultz6072]

I do not agree or how could I?

I cannot see a 3 dimensional view which would include shaft position as it relates to the face coming into impact. A steep shaft would indeed indicate one thing and a shallow shaft angle would indicate something entirely different.

That may be where your understanding of face positions gets blurred.

The face and shaft are married, you cannot possible know what the face is doing without understanding the position of the shaft or it's motion. That is why your still pictures have zero merit.

Those legs and shoes look familiar.