Calvin Peete Analysis (now w/ a page 18 blog post by Brian Manzella)

Status
Not open for further replies.

TeeAce

New member
There certainly is.

And here we sit....


I know I'm right, and objective person can see I am right, and I am NOT SAYING you are wrong in your "frame of reference."

But you HAVE To allow that I am correct in mine.


Or else, we have a big problem.

IMO the only way to see how it affects to the club face is that we put the club head to the same place and see what happens it if the wrist is cupped or bowed. That way we see how it changes relative to the path or plane. That way at impact the bowed wrist will produce more closed club face than cupped wrist and that's the only thing IMO that matters. Moving it away from that point for sure opens or closes it relative to the target line, but not if you bring it back to that place without changing the wrist orientation.

The bowed wrist will bring the face to impact later than cupped wrist, it's clear, so the hands are more ahead and it's anyway made by twisting the shaft in that relation.

So by bending the left wrist it can be more closed to the target line, but also the whole geometry is changed and hands are more behind the ball. Also the bowed wrist can make it more closed than cupped when you change the hand position in that geometry. But basically the bowed wrist will create more closed club face if everything else stands unchanged.
 
This has already been discussed on the forum a couple of times.

FACT: a bent left wrist can be a sign that the face is OPEN or CLOSED. All depends on whether the face has been twisted around the shaft or not. Simples.

I think that's the best way to define it.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
This has already been discussed on the forum a couple of times.

FACT: a bent left wrist can be a sign that the face is OPEN or CLOSED. All depends on whether the face has been twisted around the shaft or not. Simples.

I think that's the best way to define it.

That's better than anything Tapio is saying.

But you are at least 50% open minded.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Here is another for folks like that like to throw terms around without really thinking hard enough....

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/35095090?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
 

TeeAce

New member
Here is another for folks like that like to throw terms around without really thinking hard enough....

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/35095090?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Nice video. The one problem is that in that demonstration hands and face are moving on the same plane and in real life for some good players that's not reality. When hands are moving in and club face still moving out, many things will change.

But of course this is only amateur opinion ;D
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Nice video. The one problem is that in that demonstration hands and face are moving on the same plane and in real life for some good players that's not reality. When hands are moving in and club face still moving out, many things will change.

But of course this is only amateur opinion ;D

The hands plane is MORE vertical that the CLUB PLANE or the SWEETSPOT plane. Correct.

Having said that, this last video is really a club only discussion.

;):cool:
 

TeeAce

New member
The hands plane is MORE vertical that the CLUB PLANE or the SWEETSPOT plane. Correct.

Having said that, this last video is really a club only discussion.

;):cool:
More vertical, or even opposite, but the whole club direction is not that simple, because the grip is moving so much in also and in reality there is two different planes across each others.

But anyway I have to stay behind my words after more testing. When everything else remains the same, the arching of left wrist always rolls the shaft and closes the face and cupping rolls it to another direction and opens it. Laws of geometry and has to be like that as far as we grip it like we do.
 
Here is another for folks like that like to throw terms around without really thinking hard enough....

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/35095090?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Pretty cool little model.....question for you.....

Given that the science basically says that the clubhead functions essentially as "free from" the shaft at some point....and there are different amounts of having the face laying on the plane....at what point does the golfer need to have the face rolled off the plane the correct amount prior to the clubhead "freeing itself" from the golfer's control?

Also, is there an amount of "openness" that is preferred? Or is that depends on other variables? But let's assume that we aren't trying to hit big curves either way...
 
Last edited:
Summary

Page 1

BMan: "The sky is blue."

TeeAce: "No... No, it's not."

Pages 2-9:

BMan, et al: (detailed written explanation, video, pictures, models provided, & "frame of reference" clarified) "Come on man, it's not that complicated... Please just look, It's freakin blue."

Page 10:

TeeAce: "Well....... I see it and it sure looks blue & I completely understand.......... but what about northern lights like in Alaska. You know what, it's not blue."

BMan & everyone else: :( "COME On, Man! Really?"


[Added]
On that note, very helpful & useful Cal Peete analysis. Thanks for all your efforts Brian... Great stuff as always!


1st & Last post for me... I couldn't stand it anymore.
 
Last edited:
No it isn't.

The definition has been set.

Hold the club straight out in front of you—face vertical, normal grip, shaft label correctly applied.

Bend your right wrist straight back (which flattens then arches the left wrist) , keeping the ace vertical, and shaft label UNTWISTED.

To the plane the face did NOTHING, to the target the face opened.




I attended a PGA Summit at the Superdome , at which Jimmy Ballard was one of the presenters. He talked about a club being shut at the top, and demonstrated by bowing. Ben Doyle raised his hand, and took the mike; `Mr Ballard, if you would assume the bowed position at the top, then keeping your wrist as it is, bring your arms back down to the ball.' Sure enough, when he did that the face was open. The dialogue disintegrated into less than kind words, after that, but Mr. Doyle's point was made to those with an open mind. Brian, I'm sure you remember the transaction, as I recall you were sitting next to Ben.
 

TeeAce

New member
Summary

Page 1

BMan: "The sky is blue."

TeeAce: "No... No, it's not."

Pages 2-9:

BMan, et al: (detailed written explanation, video, pictures, models provided, & "frame of reference" clarified) "Come on man, it's not that complicated... Please just look, It's freakin blue."

Page 10:

TeeAce: "Well....... I see it and it sure looks blue & I completely understand.......... but what about northern lights like in Alaska. You know what, it's not blue."

BMan & everyone else: :( "COME On, Man! Really?"


1st & Last post for me... I couldn't stand it anymore.

I think you didn't watch my video. And everyone who will take the club to his hand and keep the grip and face on the same place, will see that if everything else is taken away, the bowing will shut the face. No other moves, just bowing or cupping and watch the face.
 

eoscar

New member
I think you didn't watch my video. And everyone who will take the club to his hand and keep the grip and face on the same place, will see that if everything else is taken away, the bowing will shut the face. No other moves, just bowing or cupping and watch the face.

In order to bow or cup AND keep the face AND grip in the same place you have to twist the shaft, no? At that point it seems to me there are more moves occuring than pure bowing or pure cupping.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I think you didn't watch my video. And everyone who will take the club to his hand and keep the grip and face on the same place, will see that if everything else is taken away, the bowing will shut the face. No other moves, just bowing or cupping and watch the face.

Plain and simple, Tapio:

In the PLANE OF THE CLUBSHAFT, if you have a neutral grip, and you bend the left wrist....etc. explaining in video #1.

This is common teaching vernacular, for those who have been around for a while.

You keep talking about TWISTING THE SHAFT, which at certain places in the swing with certain other factors present, does open and close the face with a reasonably "normal" grip.

I happen to know this.

Now, since you continue to say that the OBVIOUS point #1 I am making‚ to explain Kevin's post, is wrong, then you are being intellectually dishonest.
 

TeeAce

New member
Plain and simple, Tapio:

In the PLANE OF THE CLUBSHAFT, if you have a neutral grip, and you bend the left wrist....etc. explaining in video #1.

This is common teaching vernacular, for those who have been around for a while.

You keep talking about TWISTING THE SHAFT, which at certain places in the swing with certain other factors present, does open and close the face with a reasonably "normal" grip.

I happen to know this.

Now, since you continue to say that the OBVIOUS point #1 I am making‚ to explain Kevin's post, is wrong, then you are being intellectually dishonest.

Maybe I am, but in the first post about the case, the club head don't move like in your video and if it's not moving, the arching the wrist will close it, not open. That is just what that wrist movement does, no matter if you are talking about shaft or not. Players hand is connected to the shaft and moving the hand will move the shaft. You add those certain other factors (like moving the head away from it's position) and it changes the whole original question. Keep the face and grip at the same position and see if the bowing closes or opens it.

That's only the opinion of the guy who has been doing this also about 20 years.
 
Summary

Page 1

BMan: "The sky is blue."

TeeAce: "No... No, it's not."

Pages 2-9:

BMan, et al: (detailed written explanation, video, pictures, models provided, & "frame of reference" clarified) "Come on man, it's not that complicated... Please just look, It's freakin blue."

Page 10:

TeeAce: "Well....... I see it and it sure looks blue & I completely understand.......... but what about northern lights like in Alaska. You know what, it's not blue."

BMan & everyone else: :( "COME On, Man! Really?"


[Added]
On that note, very helpful & useful Cal Peete analysis. Thanks for all your efforts Brian... Great stuff as always!


1st & Last post for me... I couldn't stand it anymore.

Are you serious? Tee has made some valid points with explanations, even with a little video. Brian has made his position clear with explanation and video. Brian and Kevin refer to one thing (opening by bowing) and Tee refers to another (closing by twisting/bowing).

Brian, Kevin and Tee are all right and talking sense, they just have different terms of reference.
 

TeeAce

New member
In order to bow or cup AND keep the face AND grip in the same place you have to twist the shaft, no? At that point it seems to me there are more moves occuring than pure bowing or pure cupping.

Yes there is, but they are results of bowing and cupping. The shaft get twisted if you bow the wrist. The main point is still if the face is more closed or open at the same point if one of those made.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top