Clearing my hips

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natep

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I read a while back about Nicklaus hitting every fairway and green in a certain tournament. I'll have to look it up but I'll post the details up later.

1956 Ohio Open was a 72 hole event, 36 holes played on third day. Nicklaus started off 76, 70, then flew across the state for an exhibition match with Snead, where he hit every fairway and every green, but shot 72 to Snead's 68. He returned to the Open and finished with a 64 and a 70, and won the tournament. He was 16 years old.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Dariusz - I appreciate the apology, and am sorry if I overreacted.

But I'm not making any arguments based on my credibility, or anyone else's for that matter. I just don't think that we'll resolve anything in an argument that is so devoid of comparable facts.

I'm not remotely envious of previous generations, I think I have a healthy respect for them. I've always made the argument that, regardless of what's available through trackman, or 3D motion analysis, we would make a huge leap forward if we understood how these old guys built their games in the absence of any of that technology. I also have a healthy respect for current touring pros - who I think are making use of the technology and knowledge that's available now and pushing the game forward.

I'm not inclined to backtrack from that position on the strength of anecdotes that aren't substantiated by facts. It's part of the human condition to think that we're all going to hell in a handcart and there's no reason to think that golf is any different, or that it's true.

Lastly, if someone went round and never missed a fairway or green, we would probably still not hear about it because it's not newsworthy. Scores are newsworthy. Leads and wins are newsworthy. Hitting spectators in the head is newsworthy. But a perfect round of fairways and greens doesn't mean that much unless the putts go in and the player earns some cash.

Very wisely said, I agree 100% with your post. But, at least for me, it is sad that the reality is like you portrayed it (bold letters of my choice).

I think the list is endless. From interviews/anecdotes, Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino, Casper. I suspect every "control" player on tour. Me.

LOL...I am even a bigger idiot. I'd be more proud to score 72 with all fairways and greens hit in regulation and 18 two-putts than to score 71 with lousy ballstriking and hell of a luck in recovery shots, chip-ins and unreally long putts.

Ultimately, I think fairways are a suggestion, and don't really play a huge role in the final score. Excluding, of course, the ridiculous setups.

The point is that these "ridiculous setups" are often standard for amateurs. When I hit rough on my home course (and the rough is real rough) I simply lose a stroke unless do some excellent things on approachs/chips/putts. That's why I always concentrate on FiR number and the day I hit 14 fairways with the driver will be like a holiday.

1956 Ohio Open was a 72 hole event, 36 holes played on third day. Nicklaus started off 76, 70, then flew across the state for an exhibition match with Snead, where he hit every fairway and every green, but shot 72 to Snead's 68. He returned to the Open and finished with a 64 and a 70, and won the tournament. He was 16 years old.

This is something. If you have a link to confirm it it would be the first one documented 100% FiR & GiR hit by someone other than Hogan and Moe.

Cheers
 

jeffy

Banned
Interesting... I'm not so sure the number is as high as you might think.

Tee shots. I can't believe players (let’s say "high end" players) are picking the fairway as their ultimate goal. Sure on a lot of holes, but on every single hole? I know there are times, or situations, or opportunities that allow the player to have a better chance at a number that might not be from the fairway. It still requires a high level of control to get to those spots. Ultimately, I think fairways are a suggestion, and don't really play a huge role in the final score. Excluding, of course, the ridiculous setups.

Approach shots. These same players have the ability or intention to shoot at quadrants, not just the entire square footage of the green. Once you begin hunting the sections, you assume the risk for missing them (worth it in my opinion). The caution is certainly greater compared to the "fairways hit", because GIRs do influence the score more.

If today's players with today's equipment wanted to ultimately hit all the fairways and all the greens, I don't see it being ultra difficult to do. But I also don't think they would score any better for it. The carat just isn't big enough to reward playing with the safety on.

It would be an interesting topic to research. At one extreme, I think you would have players like Furyk and Verplank who really don't have the strength to fool with the rough. At the other extreme, JB Holmes: I assume he just wants to stay out of the trees. Calc certainly didn't seem to mind the rough.

Nicklaus for one played away from bunkers because he was such a poor bunker player. And after he missed two fairways during his 64 at the 1965 Masters he reportedly spent 90 minutes practicing just drives. And I think he followed the Hogan, Nelson and Venturi practice of working the ball from the fat side toward the pin. Casper certainly tried to just "keep it in play" off the tee and hit it to a specific area on the green. I don't think with his shallow swing Trevino ever wanted to get near the rough. Weiskopf was certainly of the "fairways and greens" school, as I suspect was just about everyone else who idolized Hogan.
 
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jeffy

Banned
This is something. If you have a link to confirm it it would be the first one documented 100% FiR & GiR hit by someone other than Hogan and Moe.

Cheers

I'm going to start looking for others. I'm convinced it has happened far more often than you think.
 

jeffy

Banned
Still looking, but in just the past month Sutton hit all 18 greens in a champions event (no comment on fairways hit) and John Mallinger hit 53 out 54 in the first three rounds on the Nationwide, but missed the 6th fairway all three days. My guess is that this information would be readily available from ShotLink.
 
It would be an interesting topic to research. At one extreme, I think you would have players like Furyk and Verplank who really don't have the strength to fool with the rough. At the other extreme, JB Holmes: I assume he just wants to stay out of the trees. Calc certainly didn't seem to mind the rough.

Nicklaus for one played away from bunkers because he was such a poor bunker player. And after he missed two fairways during his 64 at the 1965 Masters he reportedly spent 90 minutes practicing just drives. And I think he followed the Hogan, Nelson and Venturi practice of working the ball from the fat side toward the pin. Casper certainly tried to just "keep it in play" off the tee and hit it to a specific area on the green. I don't think with his shallow swing Trevino ever wanted to get near the rough. Weiskopf was certainly of the "fairways and greens" school, as I suspect was just about everyone else who idolized Hogan.

Don't forget about the carat.

What if all those players you mentioned were playing for what today's players play for? There is a point when the reward justifies the risk (or playing philosophy).

It might not have when the Studebaker was the ride dejour.
 
The point is that these "ridiculous setups" are often standard for amateurs. When I hit rough on my home course (and the rough is real rough) I simply lose a stroke unless do some excellent things on approachs/chips/putts. That's why I always concentrate on FiR number and the day I hit 14 fairways with the driver will be like a holiday.

I'm going to humbly suggest - that isn't golf.

You are missing out on some incredible fun and satisfaction with the game if you truly believe that. What if you miss the first two fairways of the round, you must feel a sense of disappointment over the next 16 holes. That's no way to play this game of misses, bad breaks, and imperfections.
 

jeffy

Banned
Grace Na of Pepperdine University "hit every fairway and green" en route to a 9-under 63 last week (October 24) at the Las Vegas Collegiate Showdown.

Just the tip of the iceberg...
 

jeffy

Banned
August 3, 2011: "After an appearance last week in the U.S. Senior Open, Terasa was dialed in as he hit every fairway and green in regulation" in the second round to capture the Wisconsin PGA Senior Championship.
 

jeffy

Banned
From 1999: "And in Seoul, South Korea, Kyi Hla Han hit every fairway and green during the final round in his second-place finish at the Kolon Korean Open to remain atop the Asian PGA Davidoff Tour's Order of Merit." From a Callaway press release.
 

natep

New
I just saw that Fred Funk hit every fairway and green in first round 02 John Deere.

I'm sure its fairly common.
 

jeffy

Banned
When Al Geiberger shot his 59 at the 1977 Memphis Classic, he hit every fairway and green (tainted, I suppose, because they were playing "lift, clean and place" that day).
 

jeffy

Banned
In the first round of the 2007 Bob Hope Classic, Robert Allenby hit every fairway and green while shooting 63.
 

jeffy

Banned
At the 2009 Dubai World Championship, Lee Westwood hit every fairway and green during his final round 64.
 

jeffy

Banned
One of the more incredible rounds of all time was Bobby Jones 66 at Sunningdale during 1926 British Open qualifying: he shot 33 on the front nine, 33 on the back, had 33 putts and 33 shots tee-to-green (it was a par 70). Ten of his approaches were with a 2-iron or fairway wood. I'll see if I can find out if he missed any fairways.
 
I don't know about TOTALLY irrelevant Wulsy. It depends what you're asking about, but if average GIR hasn't changed all that much in 50 years, I'd be tempted to conclude that there's some continuity.

The difficulty I see (and it's a variation on Kevin and ej20's points) is that on tour, players tend to bunch in the 11 - 13 GIRs range. Given that many of the statistical "missed greens" will be good shots to the fringe, and that a proportion of GIR will result in 3-putts, it's easy to see how the GIR stat doesn't discriminate very well between players at that level. You need a different slice of information to determine where players at that level gain an edge against the field.

Read "Moneygolf".
 
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