Clearing my hips

[birly-shirly]

I don't know about TOTALLY irrelevant Wulsy. It depends what you're asking about, but if average GIR hasn't changed all that much in 50 years, I'd be tempted to conclude that there's some continuity.

The difficulty I see (and it's a variation on Kevin and ej20's points) is that on tour, players tend to bunch in the 11 - 13 GIRs range. Given that many of the statistical "missed greens" will be good shots to the fringe, and that a proportion of GIR will result in 3-putts, it's easy to see how the GIR stat doesn't discriminate very well between players at that level. You need a different slice of information to determine where players at that level gain an edge against the field.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Proximity to the Hole

 

[birly-shirly]

Still not enough detail - if you're in the range where you're far enough away to be unlikely to make the putt, but close enough to be unlikely to 3-stab.

The far away end of this range is, I suppose, what's being called the Danger Zone. The near end is where great wedge players do their work. In between, the great mass of people are two putting and moving on.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, I hate to burst your bubble, but every fairway and every green is not that hard to do from time to time. I realize you dont completely have a grasp of golf at higher levels but Ive done it a number of times (OF COURSE not regularly) and have seen it done a number of times. If anyone whos good at all gets a case of the straights on a day it isnt that hard to do, even on a good course in a tournament. US Open.....different story of course.
As far as stats, if you played a Tour course with 18 tucked pins you could be looking at 12 footers all day every hole and hit 0 greens in regulation.

OK, I am far away from big golf, cannot watch all tournaments and have nothing to do with great scoring - all true things. So, I would be very grateful if some inform me when such a situation happens 100 % FiR & GiR on PGA Tour.

Dariusz - I stated an assumption of someone who averages 13 GIR.

Not 13/14. Not in the sense of 13 or 14, and OBVIOUSLY not in the sense of 13 out of 14.

Not 90%.

70% = 12.6.

13/18 = 72.2%.

For 4 years out of 5 (and PAST HIS PRIME) Jack was right in the middle of that range. Which you choose to call a "loose example, not a fact".

I'm not being rude. I am being critical. You're point-blank making stuff up. Like Hogan having a "mediocre short game". Like Power Golf being pre-secret. Like Hogan "frequently hitting every FW and every green". I don't doubt he did it, on occasion, on exactly the same basis of probability that means Jack, and anyone else who averages around 13 GIR, will have done. But you have ZERO statistical evidence to back you up in your insistence that Hogan was in a different league to everyone else, then or since.

You've got a handful of quotes and anecdotes from misty-eyed pros and you want to build an alternative universe where golfers confound the trend in practically every other sport and endeavour towards improving performance.

It's a pointless debate - mangled by your mistreatment of facts, quotes and logic. So I'm out.

I owe you an apology. It was my mistake from the beginning where I thought 13/14 and not 13/18 (FiR instead GiR). My next post was a logical consequence of this mistake. I apologize once again.

Having said this I do not think I am in another universe. Tell me why shouldn't I believe what these "misty-eyed pros" said if they witnessed it ? Don't they have a bit better credibility than yourself or today's pros like Kevin ? They were there, saw it. Sometimes some of you behave like being envy of former champs.

So why don't we see it multiple times each year on the tour, where the best players in the world get together? Surely Dariusz' point about Hogan is that he did it in the pressure cooker, and that that very fact is part of what makes him such a great ballstriker?

Exactly.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

Dariusz - I appreciate the apology, and am sorry if I overreacted.

But I'm not making any arguments based on my credibility, or anyone else's for that matter. I just don't think that we'll resolve anything in an argument that is so devoid of comparable facts.

I'm not remotely envious of previous generations, I think I have a healthy respect for them. I've always made the argument that, regardless of what's available through trackman, or 3D motion analysis, we would make a huge leap forward if we understood how these old guys built their games in the absence of any of that technology. I also have a healthy respect for current touring pros - who I think are making use of the technology and knowledge that's available now and pushing the game forward.

I'm not inclined to backtrack from that position on the strength of anecdotes that aren't substantiated by facts. It's part of the human condition to think that we're all going to hell in a handcart and there's no reason to think that golf is any different, or that it's true.

Lastly, if someone went round and never missed a fairway or green, we would probably still not hear about it because it's not newsworthy. Scores are newsworthy. Leads and wins are newsworthy. Hitting spectators in the head is newsworthy. But a perfect round of fairways and greens doesn't mean that much unless the putts go in and the player earns some cash.

 

[jeffy]

Well, show me a proof then, Kevin. And i do not know what kind of local pros you have in the States, but I know noone neither heard about anyone hitting 100% FiR & GiR in a tournament round except Hogan and Moe.

Cheers

I'm pretty sure Johnny Miller hit every fairway and green during his final round 63 at Oakmont in the 1973 US Open and I think David Graham did the same thing when won at Merion in 1981. My guess is that Miller did that regularly at the desert events (the Bob Hope, Tucson, Phoenix) in the early 1970s.

The Greater Hartford Open was at an easy course when I was growing up and I remember one year Trevino's GIR percentage was in the 90s. Wouldn't be surprised if he had a few 100% days there.

Don't know for sure (I can look it up tonight) but I think Nicklaus hit every green and fairway in 1965 during the round he shot 64 when he set the Masters 72 hole scoring record. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit every fairway and green when he shot 63 at Baltusrol in 1980. During the Heritage Classic in 1975 the headline read after the first round "Nickluas: I hit no bad shots"; don't know for sure, but sounds like a 100% fairways and greens day to me.

Also, I remember John Schlee saying that once at Augusta he hit every green and fairway. I was at the 1976 Masters and it wouldn't surprise me if Floyd hit every green and fairway in at least one round. I never saw ballstriking like that before or since.

All this being said, Hogan was other-wordly during at least some of his rare post-accident events, such as the final 36 at Cherry Hills in 1960, when he only missed two fairways and two greens. At one tour event in the 1960s, I think a golf magazine followed Hogan for all 72 holes and said that he only mishit something like 5 or 6 shots the whole event. I've never heard of anyone else doing that.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Why was there a big deal in '06 or '07 when Tiger lost to Angel Cabrera about Tiger or someone else in the tournament being the first to hit all 18 GIR's in a US Open round.

I think Tiger hit 17 in the 3rd round.

 

[natep]

I read a while back about Nicklaus hitting every fairway and green in a certain tournament. I'll have to look it up but I'll post the details up later.

 

[jeffy]

Just looked up Nicklaus's 64 at the 1965 Masters: missed two fairways, hit all 18 greens.

 

[jeffy]

Why was there a big deal in '06 or '07 when Tiger lost to Angel Cabrera about Tiger or someone else in the tournament being the first to hit all 18 GIR's in a US Open round.

I think Tiger hit 17 in the 3rd round.

I looked it up and Miller three-putted from the edge on the 244 yard par three eighth. So I guess technically he didn't hit all 18 greens. I think Graham may have had one or two putts from the fringe as well.

 

[mgranato]

The question is, who plays golf with the intention/goal/purpose of hitting every fairway and every green? I don't.

 

[jeffy]

The question is, who plays golf with the intention/goal/purpose of hitting every fairway and every green? I don't.

I think the list is endless. From interviews/anecdotes, Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino, Casper. I suspect every "control" player on tour. Me.

 

[bcoak]

I don't see why flinging your hips open has any bearing on the clubhead and creating the speed. The golf club is not connected to your lower body. It is definitely a chicken and the egg argument in my opinion. The less I "try" to do with them the more they look like they just fling open. Basically I just try to listen to what Sam Snead said and feel like it all goes together.

If you can explain it to me as if I were a 5 year old why it works then I'm all ears.

Simiilar to throwing a baseball. You get more speed by using your body

 

[dbl]

Besides, as I read now, one of these 1 iron shots Nicklaus performed was his third shot, that suggests he blew his drive horribly and prolly rescued to the fairway with a wedge.

The history of Nicklaus on that 72nd is pretty interesting. He had history in mind and at the same time some safety and hit a 1 iron from the tee - it went straight (not left) and then faded, and he wound up in the right rough near a tv cable. He got a drop but onto some bad bare ground (and not in an overall good position). With an 8Iron he blew impact and hit 3 inches fat and only went 50 yards and was very embarrassed. That left him 238 yards - for his third and he chose 1 iron uphill to the closing green. Best 1iron of his career he has said. With the ball on the green and victory assured he again thought of the scoring record which a one putt would bring, and went for it, making it.

 

[kdvols]

I am blocking the ball with my driver and I thought I could use some pointers on how to clear my hips. 28 pages later and this question still hasn't been answered.

 

[footwedge]

I am blocking the ball with my driver and I thought I could use some pointers on how to clear my hips. 28 pages later and this question still hasn't been answered.

Why do you think the hips are the problem?

 

[jeffy]

I am blocking the ball with my driver and I thought I could use some pointers on how to clear my hips. 28 pages later and this question still hasn't been answered.

That's not true. I posted a bunch of pics showing how a number of long hitters do it: flex and externally rotate the hips and knees in transition, then extend and internally rotate them through impact. Post #32, page 4, posted more than a week ago. Have you tried that? Lifter has, and the video is awesome.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CUkPhRw1ItY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Compare to the "endless" knee and hip slide from two months ago:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zc9ncE0AtAc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[kdvols]

Thanks. I guess I missed that the first time through. It may not be a problem with clearing my hips, but I am pretty inflexible so I thought it might help to work on that.

 

[footwedge]

Thanks. I guess I missed that the first time through. It may not be a problem with clearing my hips, but I am pretty inflexible so I thought it might help to work on that.

Hard for anyone to really say unless you post up your swing. Then maybe the instructors here can comment on it.

 

[mgranato]

I think the list is endless. From interviews/anecdotes, Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino, Casper. I suspect every "control" player on tour. Me.

Interesting... I'm not so sure the number is as high as you might think.

Tee shots. I can't believe players (let’s say "high end" players) are picking the fairway as their ultimate goal. Sure on a lot of holes, but on every single hole? I know there are times, or situations, or opportunities that allow the player to have a better chance at a number that might not be from the fairway. It still requires a high level of control to get to those spots. Ultimately, I think fairways are a suggestion, and don't really play a huge role in the final score. Excluding, of course, the ridiculous setups.

Approach shots. These same players have the ability or intention to shoot at quadrants, not just the entire square footage of the green. Once you begin hunting the sections, you assume the risk for missing them (worth it in my opinion). The caution is certainly greater compared to the "fairways hit", because GIRs do influence the score more.

If today's players with today's equipment wanted to ultimately hit all the fairways and all the greens, I don't see it being ultra difficult to do. But I also don't think they would score any better for it. The carat just isn't big enough to reward playing with the safety on.