D-Plane Outcomes

[birly-shirly]

John - I'm not sure what you'd be looking for from the new model, but IF you're looking to link ballflight with off-centre hits - don't you run into practical problems with differing physical characteristics of different clubheads?

I certainly don't know for sure, and I'm not sure who outside of TM will, but I would guess that TM's algorithms contain some assumptions about the physical characteristics of clubs (possibly a different set of characteristics by loft?) including weight and MOI. My guess is that the monitor measures ballflight, relative to clubhead velocity, and deduces where on the face in relation to the sweetspot the ball was hit.

Jorgensen thought that the practical differences between different club designs would be trivial - but if you're looking for ultimate accuracy, there's no getting away from the amount of real measurement that you've got to do. I think you'd have to have a Maltby-style analysis of the clubhead being used - and you'd still be inferring the point of contact rather than directly measuring it.

Or use tape...I guess. I expect the actual ballflight and spin data is already there, and maybe impact tape closes the gap for practical purposes. Or are you concerned that off-centre hits will actually skew the reported clubpath and face data?

 

[ggsjpc]

Or are you concerned that off-centre hits will actually skew the reported clubpath and face data?

This one.

We know why the ball is doing but we I haven't seen it expressed visually in a way to be a companion to the D Plane.

 

[Michael Finney]

Or use tape...I guess. I expect the actual ballflight and spin data is already there, and maybe impact tape closes the gap for practical purposes.

nope, then you would have to infer that the center of the face was the actual COG.....like all the experts on golfwrx - they know that Hogan necked it all day long because jackie burke told them so.....

jorgenson knew his d plane theory only applied to "non torquing" centered hits....anything beyond that will be for the lab - but i can see john's POV....

 

[westy]

off center hits

If a ball is hit off center, the face twists while the ball is on it, but it still leaves in accordance with D-plane rules, right?
Or is there another different algorithm you have to add for the changing influence while the ball is stuck to the face. (gear effect).
Is that what you are saying?
A center hit has gear anyways, but the plane of compression is sustained.
When you miss, the plane is not sustained, thus becomes more complicated to calculate.
Is that it?

 

[birly-shirly]

nope, then you would have to infer that the center of the face was the actual COG.....like all the experts on golfwrx - they know that Hogan necked it all day long because jackie burke told them so.....

jorgenson knew his d plane theory only applied to "non torquing" centered hits....anything beyond that will be for the lab - but i can see john's POV....

michael - I know what box you're trying to put me in, but trust me, we're not going there.

I'm pretty sure we both agree that impact tape will tell you exactly where on the face you made contact - but that you still need to know where the COG of the clubhead is. trouble is, I don't think trackman knows

I know it'll tell you accurately what the ballflight effects of an off-COG strike are. but I think there has to be an element of approximation in how it works backwards to derive interelating path, face and impact data without having the precise physical characteristics of the club you're hitting.

does it matter in practice? possibly not - but you won't really know unless you either know what algorithms and assumptions are used, or you see side by side comparisons with a system, probably photographic, that more directly measures the club-ball interaction. fwiw - I'm sure that this will have happened during trackman development.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Wow.

Do you guys realize that PING has a camera system that takes 100,000 HD pictures a second?

Paul Wood probably has thought of EVERY scenario on this thread plus 100.

I talked to TrackMan yesterday and Tuxen has been here done that.

You are forgetting that there are other PHDs put on this big world.

Good questions though.

But, the D-Plane lives on.

Jorgenson said it was an "initial" model.

Here are the MAIN "discoveries" on this subject.

THE RESULTANT PATH.

Biggest news in Teaching History.

THE D-PLANE.

That ball starts neither on the face, nor the path, and doesn't fly the same on a 10° dynamic loft, level struck, 6° in-to-out shot with 100 mph of ball speed, as one with 20° of dynamic loft.

SPIN LOFT.

Nobody has this even close to correct.

Class closed.

Surely, anyone following the D-Plane and TrackMan knows about heel and toe hits.

I could write 1000 words on it.

Also, anyone following the D-Plane and TrackMan knows about wind effect, lift and all the rest.

I ask this question of John Graham, sort of like the one I asked Birly (do you guys know each other BTW?).

John, you are questioning the science of scientist, which I can understand.

But, do you ever question the "science" of the S & Ters?

 

[birly-shirly]

Ping has a swish camera. Cool. Since they're in the business of perimeter weighted clubheads, in fact, since they more or less invented the business of perimeter weighted clubheads and I would guess are most people's idea of a technology-led equipment company, that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Do you happen to know whether Ping thinks that their camera has been made redundant by the availability of trackman or similar technology?

Do you think perhaps they might have put a trackman into a

side by side comparison with a system, probably photographic, that more directly measures the club-ball interaction

?

Do you know of the results of any study that has tried to quantify the extent of any error (if any) that might creep into the clubpath and face data produced by trackman as a result of varying off-centre strikes and different club designs?

It might be vanishingly small. It might not. It might even vary depending on the player. Are those reasonable questions to ask?

You asked about John and me. The answer is that I know John about as well as I know you.

 

[Michael Finney]

Do you happen to know whether Ping thinks that their camera has been made redundant by the availability of trackman or similar technology?

If anything Trackman is redundant to their cameras. They ultimately rely on the camera. Ping has verified that Trackman does the best job of matching up with what their camera tells them. That's why they own 100 Trackmen.

Do you know of the results of any study that has tried to quantify the extent of any error (if any) that might creep into the clubpath and face data produced by trackman as a result of varying off-centre strikes and different club designs?

We were at Ping for 2 days - during that time, that is ALL that they did. Center hits and 6 different off center hits - Pingman - Trackman - and a guy named Cal sitting in a chair, teeing up balls with a ball retriever - ALL DAY LONG. The Trackman results would go into a central database for review.

Cal is an engineer by the way - so I would say that judging by that experience, Ping has a pretty good handle on what Trackman, their camera, and their clubs can do related to off center hits.

By the way, I wasn't trying to put you in a box earlier - the thought of Hogan "necking it" all the way to being the greatest ball striker ever just pisses me off.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Holy, holy, holy...

Do you happen to know whether Ping thinks that their camera has been made redundant by the availability of trackman or similar technology?

They have check TrackMan against the camera, and guess what?

In the lab, hitting out the door, is PING MAN 5 with a Trackman behind it, and a PHD doing the tests with hits all over the face.

Do you know of the results of any study that has tried to quantify the extent of any error (if any) that might creep into the clubpath and face data produced by trackman as a result of varying off-centre strikes and different club designs?

Yes.

There have been several. And no, nobody is letting any of us see it.

nFlight, PINGs software than runs best on TrackMan, gives fitting recommendations for lots of other manufacturers.

So, I am pretty sure they have done the test with other clubs as well.

Are those reasonable questions to ask?

Sure.

But, dude, I asked all of these questions, and DOZENS MORE, before i bought my Trackman.

WE WENT TO PING FOR TWO DAYS, saw EVERYTHING we wanted HAD EVERY question answered.

I have GIVEN AWAY lots of it.

But, not all.

 

[ggsjpc]

I ask this question of John Graham, sort of like the one I asked Birly (do you guys know each other BTW?).

I don't know.

I might.

I don't know his name.

I can surely appreciate his willingness to take opposing points of view.

 

[bcoak]

Does Ping publish any pictures they take any where?

 

[Michael Finney]

have you ever taken an opposing point of view that you regretted?

 

[ggsjpc]

have you ever taken an opposing point of view that you regretted?

No.

Been wrong on?

Sure.

Sometimes that's the whole point.

 

[ggsjpc]

But, do you ever question the "science" of the S & Ters?

Do you mean like this?

JG's SNT ?'s

 

[birly-shirly]

@ Michael and Brian

Michael and Brian

Last things first. Sorry, Michael, if I picked you up wrong. Thought I was being lumped in with one of your "golfwrx experts". I find the idea that Hogan made his living hitting clanky shots out of the heel just as ridiculous as you do.

The ping trip sounds v. cool. Mind saying what took you to Ping rather than anyone else? Do you just happen to have contacts with that particular company, or did you go there in particular because you think they are doing some things differently to the rest of the industry? Like I said, I think they pretty well epitomise a tech-based golf co for many folks (self included) - so I'm curious in your take on this.

Sorry if this is drifting off-topic - but did they say talk about why they went into blades? Do their engineers really think their perimeter weighted irons have "hot spots"?

 

[spktho]

Did Hogan hit his irons more toward the heel because that's where the COG was in his irons?

 

[birly-shirly]

Yes. It wasn't an exclusive Hogan trick either. Check this out if you're interested

Playability Factor: Analyzing Ball Impact Wear Spot of A Tour Player - The GolfWorks

 

[ggsjpc]

Brian,

Do you believe the balls spin axis is always perpendicular to the top vector at take off?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

Do you believe the balls spin axis is always perpendicular to the top vector at take off?

It isn't.

Just a little curious question...

Are you the same guy that a couple of months ago was trying to wrap your head around the simple math of why you HAVE TO hit up to maximize your distance, but now you are asking about spin axis differences to the top vector on off-center shots?

 

[ggsjpc]

I'm so sorry. My question wasn't asked correctly.

Do you believe the balls spin axis is always perpendicular to the plane formed by the top and bottom vector at take off?