ggsjpc
New
You may be mistaken.
I never questioned the math about hitting up to maximize distance.
BTW-Aren't you proud of me?
Happy Easter to you and yours.
D-Plane Outcomes
- Thread starter ggsjpc
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You may be mistaken.
I never questioned the math about hitting up to maximize distance.
BTW-Aren't you proud of me?
Happy Easter to you and yours.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Are you talking off-center hits?
You just couldn't wrap you head around the idea.
It all math, John.
Do you understand why you HAVE TO HIT UP at certain swing speeds to maximize distance?
Since we are talking D-Plane.
Happy Easter.
ggsjpc
New
Off center and center hits.
Yea, still not accurate.
Never questioned the distance aspect.
Do you understand why you HAVE TO HIT UP at certain swing speeds to maximize distance?
Since we are talking D-Plane.
Happy Easter.
Are you saying at certain swing speeds, more distance can be gained by hitting down on the ball?
All else being equal, distance can be maximized by hitting up at all swing speeds.
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ggsjpc
New
Personally, I'm not really sure how we got on this road.
The thread, from three titles ago, was about whether or not the forum members thought the D Plane was inclusive enough to last the test of time or would another very similar model better explain center and off center hits.
I stated that I thought the D Plane in its current form was inadequate and listed my reasons why.
The thread, from three titles ago, was about whether or not the forum members thought the D Plane was inclusive enough to last the test of time or would another very similar model better explain center and off center hits.
I stated that I thought the D Plane in its current form was inadequate and listed my reasons why.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
How we got here? This is exactly WHERE you wanted to get.
Because you are TRYING to be a contrarian, which btw is a brilliant move by you from the start.
"I am just taking the opposing side for better discussion."
Or for "other" reasons.
On the fourth title now..trying to accurate.
The D-Plane is never going to be replaced.
All science gets tweaked. That is the nature of science.
Tweaked.
Tuxen has a BUNCH off stuff on this subject he hasn't released, but if you want me to ask him all of your "concerns," I will do it this week.
He still calls it the D-Plane btw.
You never cited your sources or your research.
Go ahead....tell us.
Because you are TRYING to be a contrarian, which btw is a brilliant move by you from the start.
"I am just taking the opposing side for better discussion."
Or for "other" reasons.
On the fourth title now..trying to accurate.
The D-Plane is never going to be replaced.
All science gets tweaked. That is the nature of science.
Tweaked.
Tuxen has a BUNCH off stuff on this subject he hasn't released, but if you want me to ask him all of your "concerns," I will do it this week.
He still calls it the D-Plane btw.
You never cited your sources or your research.
Go ahead....tell us.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Official Statement.
The most important thing FOR TEACHING AND PLAYING GOLF that has come out of the D-Plane/U-Plane/TrackMan discussions and revelations is the RESULTANT PATH of the u-Plane.
Knowing that you CAN NOT swing straight have square face and hit a straight ball is more important than ANY DISCOVERY in the last 100 years.
The D-Plane part is knowing SIMPLY that the ball takes off on a plane that is between 85-65% of the normal to the clubface vector and this resultant path—and that this takes place on a titled plane for curving shots—is not as important, but is important nonetheless, and WILL NOT EVER CHANGE.
Everything else is gravy, but, I'd bet that a 3D model will be produced at some point that is VERY ACCURATE.
Got it?
Are you sure you got it?
The most important thing FOR TEACHING AND PLAYING GOLF that has come out of the D-Plane/U-Plane/TrackMan discussions and revelations is the RESULTANT PATH of the u-Plane.
Knowing that you CAN NOT swing straight have square face and hit a straight ball is more important than ANY DISCOVERY in the last 100 years.
The D-Plane part is knowing SIMPLY that the ball takes off on a plane that is between 85-65% of the normal to the clubface vector and this resultant path—and that this takes place on a titled plane for curving shots—is not as important, but is important nonetheless, and WILL NOT EVER CHANGE.
Everything else is gravy, but, I'd bet that a 3D model will be produced at some point that is VERY ACCURATE.
Got it?
Are you sure you got it?
ggsjpc
New
You just couldn't wrap you head around the idea.
It all math, John.
Do you understand why you HAVE TO HIT UP at certain swing speeds to maximize distance?
Since we are talking D-Plane.
Happy Easter.
I was talking about this road.
Now we are on back on track, so all's well that ends well.
Because you are TRYING to be a contrarian, which btw is a brilliant move by you from the start.
"I am just taking the opposing side for better discussion."
Or for "other" reasons.
Who? Me? Just for fun. As always.
You say tomato, I say tomahto
Already been done, but thanks for the generous offer.
Ok.
Well, I was on my way to Orlando rereading my copy of "The Physics of Golf" Second Edition when I came across an idea that was wrong in the book. Here's that quote. "If the ball is hit too close to the toe of the club, the club will turn to a toed-out position before the ball leaves the clubhead, putting the normal to the clubhead farther to the right than was intended. The ball will then fade to the right."
We all know that gear effect may actually cause a toe shot to curve left.
This got me thinking about what do off center hit D Planes look like.
For example, let's assume a RH golfer and an iron shot with a "true path" at(below) the target and a club face normal at(above) the target just before impact.
The ball is hit out on the toe enough to cause the clubhead to turn to a toed out position before the ball leaves the clubhead, putting the normal to the clubhead farther to the right than was intended. Because of gear effect we end up with a spin axis that is tilted to the left.
Our D Plane would show a normal to the clubface right of the path and a tilt to the right.
The ball would have a spin axis to the left, not perpendicular to the face of the plane with lift forces again not perpendicular to the D Plane.
Where do we go from here.
Let's quote Jorgensen's definition.
"The D Plane for a golf swing contains the path along which the clubhead is moving at impact(true path), the normal to the club face (true face) and the initial path of the ball after impact. The D Plane also contains the aerodynamic lift force, since the lift force is perpendicular to the axis of spin and this axis is perpendicular to the D Plane."
So basically, we have one of two false hoods when it comes to off center hits.
Either, the D Plane looks like something that isn't described in his definition.
or
Trackman isn't measuring accurately.
I think Trackman is right so,.......
The only definition I could think of that could accurately describe both outcomes(center hit and off center hit) would be a top vector created by the 3d direction of the spin axis and not the normal to the clubface.
This would provide for the correct shape of the D Plane and the correct lift forces in their proper direction.
No research. No sources. Just thoughts.
Since we all know you are the D Plane guy, I thought I might display my theory here.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Answer Attempts from The Answer Manz...
This is just an educated guess, from an actual TrackMan and Casio owner....
I make a swing, with a resulant path of 0 degrees and a face of 0 degrees and a vertical centerline sweetspot strike, with a 6-iron off of the ground.
The ball goes dead straight.
I make an identical swing, with a DELIVERED resulant path of 0 degrees and a face of 0 degrees with a 6-iron off of the ground, BUT I strike it WAY OUT on the toe of the club.
TrackMan shows a face angle of 5 degrees open, which should produce a big fade, but the ball goes between what would have been a giant fade, and the straight ball it cannot be.
Becuase of the gear effect.
No way that ball will hook.
Sounds like a plausable theory.
I try it on Wood and Zick and check back with Tuxen after those calls.
You understand you are talking about OFF CENTER hits, and just like SLICES and HOOKS, I teach people NOT TO do this all day long.
I just GAVE that lesson to a Doctor from Baton Rouge.
I repeat--THE D PLANE WILL BE TWEAKED LIKE ALL SCIENCE, but the most important thing to come out of all of this, and maybe in the 600 years of golf, is that a straight palne line, and a square face at separation WILL NOT PRODUCE a straight ball on a center strike.
This is just an educated guess, from an actual TrackMan and Casio owner....
I make a swing, with a resulant path of 0 degrees and a face of 0 degrees and a vertical centerline sweetspot strike, with a 6-iron off of the ground.
The ball goes dead straight.
I make an identical swing, with a DELIVERED resulant path of 0 degrees and a face of 0 degrees with a 6-iron off of the ground, BUT I strike it WAY OUT on the toe of the club.
TrackMan shows a face angle of 5 degrees open, which should produce a big fade, but the ball goes between what would have been a giant fade, and the straight ball it cannot be.
Becuase of the gear effect.
No way that ball will hook.
Sounds like a plausable theory.
I try it on Wood and Zick and check back with Tuxen after those calls.
You understand you are talking about OFF CENTER hits, and just like SLICES and HOOKS, I teach people NOT TO do this all day long.
I just GAVE that lesson to a Doctor from Baton Rouge.
I repeat--THE D PLANE WILL BE TWEAKED LIKE ALL SCIENCE, but the most important thing to come out of all of this, and maybe in the 600 years of golf, is that a straight palne line, and a square face at separation WILL NOT PRODUCE a straight ball on a center strike.
westy
New
Top Vector Skew
Are you saying, or i think what you are getting at, is on an off center strike,
The face twists in 3D based on where abouts in relation to the Center, like a clock face, with the center being the center of the face, (9pm toe, 3pm heel)...
So at contact, the face is pointing somewhere.
At separation it points somewhere different. therefore you have two top vectors, and a kind of bell curve or a curve of some type between the two, based on the amount of energy being imparted to the ball during this twisting collision.
These two top vectors could be left and right, as well as up and down, so may be at a slant to the D-plane, and skew the top of it somehow.
I dont think the ball goes where the face points at separation, because there is no spring left in the ball, so it must go somewhere in between where the face points between contact and separation.
Are you saying, or i think what you are getting at, is on an off center strike,
The face twists in 3D based on where abouts in relation to the Center, like a clock face, with the center being the center of the face, (9pm toe, 3pm heel)...
So at contact, the face is pointing somewhere.
At separation it points somewhere different. therefore you have two top vectors, and a kind of bell curve or a curve of some type between the two, based on the amount of energy being imparted to the ball during this twisting collision.
These two top vectors could be left and right, as well as up and down, so may be at a slant to the D-plane, and skew the top of it somehow.
I dont think the ball goes where the face points at separation, because there is no spring left in the ball, so it must go somewhere in between where the face points between contact and separation.
westy
New
Because the toe hit is trying to hook it.
Also along this line of thought a heeled fade will cut more, and a toe struck draw will hook more than the same delivered D-plane components suggest.
westy
New
Resultant True Face?
Gear effect is 3D...
Resultant true face is somewhere between where the face points at contact vs where it points when the ball leaves.
A high toe hit vs a low toe hit will affect the axis tilt of the ball differently.
The struck ball deflects away from the sweetspot, but gears towards it. If you hit it low on the toe, the ball gear goes up and in toward the sweetspot, tilting the axis of the ball left, because the face is deflecting out and down.
A high toe hit is going to deflect towards the sweetness also, but it will now tilt the balls axis to the right, because the club gets deflected out and up.
Gear effect is 3D...
Resultant true face is somewhere between where the face points at contact vs where it points when the ball leaves.
A high toe hit vs a low toe hit will affect the axis tilt of the ball differently.
The struck ball deflects away from the sweetspot, but gears towards it. If you hit it low on the toe, the ball gear goes up and in toward the sweetspot, tilting the axis of the ball left, because the face is deflecting out and down.
A high toe hit is going to deflect towards the sweetness also, but it will now tilt the balls axis to the right, because the club gets deflected out and up.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
John,
This may come as a surprise to you, but I try to get my students to hit it in the sweetspot.
ggsjpc
New
That's what I've been doing wrong all this time....as I slap myself in the forehead.
Just talking theory Brian.
That's all.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That's what I've been doing wrong all this time....as I slap myself in the forehead.
Just talking theory Brian.
That's all.
I know John.
But, it turns out...
The RESULTANT PATH stands as written.
The D-Plane as vertical sweetspot contact, ball-flight model, stands as written.
Those two make Gary Wiren wrong.
Homer Kelley wrong.
And anyone who says the ball starts on the face (you know who) wrong.
So.....
You see, John, ah, well, Gary Wiren & Homer Kelley and & You Know Who were ALL TAKING ABIOUT CENTER HITS!!!!
So....
Ah....
That makes them still wrong.
Because.....
Ah....
You See.....
The RESULTANT PATH still stands as written.
The D-Plane as vertical sweetspot contact, ball-flight model, still stands as written.
And...
You see....
You stared this post as a "The D-Plane may be wrong post" causing GLEE in those other camps.
But...
John....
The RESULTANT PATH stands as written.
The D-Plane as vertical sweetspot contact, ball-flight model, stands as written.
So,
John,
We meed an additional model for off center strikes.
That is a good thing.
But....
The RESULTANT PATH stands as written.
The D-Plane as vertical sweetspot contact, ball-flight model, stands as written.
And those other guys are STILL WRONG.
Thanks....
Brian Manzella, the guy who couldn't care less about dogma.
I just want the friggin' truth!!!
and....
The RESULTANT PATH stands as written.
The D-Plane as vertical sweetspot contact, ball-flight model, stands as written.
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