Debate: Path or Clubface to Fix a Slice —now with Manzella MIT project data on page 6

[slicer2scratch]

Debate: Path or Clubface to Fix a Slice —now with Manzella MIT project data on page 6

Hey everyone...Im glad to be on a website where I can actually learn something...
I DONT KNOW HOW THINGS WORK HERE but heres where ill start.

Theres a debate on some other forums going on , which I started,
as an instructor who teaches daily and someone who went from taking the game up late...as an average...hacker/slicer playing that way for about 3or 4 years...

I Then built myself into a respectable player and into the golf business (spent time taking and observing many lessons) and now teaching,
It started as a debate then went to a post/poll about whats the root cause of a slice>? face/path

From fixing my game and certain things I have seen Im convinced its face ( not for all) but many...
I then saw Brians you tube clip on golf channel instructor search (confirmed alot for me)

There are ALOT who seem to think its path...
thoughts, comments?

 

[goley]

If the path is the problem and the face is ok then all shots would be pulls. As Brian has stated many times on the forum " fix the face first". I agree.

 

[natep]

Seems like a chicken or the egg type question.

Are people coming over the top because they're trying to square the face OR are they opening the face because they come over the top?

I would guess the former.

I dont think I've ever seen a beginner that was hitting pulls/pull hooks and then started compensating by opening the face.

But I've seen plenty of beginners who start off hitting unplayable right to right banana slices and then try to compensate with an OTT move.

Just my $0.02.

I'm not an instructor. I'm sure the instructors on this site will have a more informed answer.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Face...

 

[mjstrong]

Definitely face.

 

[slicer2scratch]

Its amazing how unanimous over here face seems to be the answer...
As I am getting hammered in the other posted as if path was some sort of universal answer>...lol(amazing)

 

[Ringer]

Alright, technically the curvature is simply a function of the difference between face and path. So BOTH are actually technically correct.

How to FIX a slice is another matter.

Fix the face first and you will get someone to pull the shot. From there, they can usually make the adjustments on their own for the path.

 

[slicer2scratch]

What do you attribute the other forums overwhelmingly saying path and they all think its like universal to the golf world?
Is this just a different ill call it STYLE of instruction in this other forum im referring to?

 

[softconsult]

Ignorance.

 

[Bigwill]

What do you attribute the other forums overwhelmingly saying path and they all think its like universal to the golf world?
Is this just a different ill call it STYLE of instruction in this other forum im referring to?

Maybe because an open clubface at impact is a lot less obvious/visible than an over-the-top, way-too-far-to-the-left swing path. It's easy to say "Hmm, that looks funky; let's fix that". Besides that, some instructors may not know how to quickly and effectively fix the face (besides strengthening the players grip).

 

[Williamevanl]

I like the guy that just says ignorance... Terrific! Curious ss which forum seemed like a better source of information? One with golf geeks pouring over trackman data, and highspeed film, or people that just stridently say face?

 

[slicer2scratch]

Will if you stick around long enough and post possibley your thoughts I am sure you will get some information upon you other than system based instruction.

 

[Williamevanl]

It's really simple(seemingly?) If a person is hitting a straight or pull slice their club face is already square or shut (to the target line) then their path is the only thing that needs "fixed". Closing a club face that is either square or closed to the target just doesn't make sense. You aren't curing a slice you are simply converting it into a pull.

 

[Williamevanl]

And to the guy that said an open clubface isn't as glaring, how isn't it? If the balls starting line is right of the target line then the face is obviously open, otherwise it's not.

 

[Williamevanl]

And to the guy that said fix the face and they will likely fix the path I'm not sure I understand this. If a person is hitting a straight slice their clubface is square to the target line and the path is out to in. If you close the face further and the person is successful in swinging more from the inside they will find that their shots are going even further left so if anything I could only see that discouraging someone from finding the proper path. I guess if you were going this route I would think that you would require that the person HAS an open clubface as this would require that the swing on the proper path in order for the ball to end up at the target(push draw).

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It's really simple(seemingly?) If a person is hitting a straight or pull slice their club face is already square or shut (to the target line) then their path is the only thing that needs "fixed". Closing a club face that is either square or closed to the target just doesn't make sense. You aren't curing a slice you are simply converting it into a pull.

Yup, you are. However, once that person can consistently hit just the pull, you just "gently" move their path and done. Also, if they are hitting a pull slice the face is wide open and no where near "square" or "shut."

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

And to the guy that said fix the face and they will likely fix the path I'm not sure I understand this. If a person is hitting a straight slice their clubface is square to the target line and the path is out to in.

only 1 of a few possible combinations. Sounds like you don't know what the d-plane is or are factoring in any down into the ball flight.

If you close the face further and the person is successful in swinging more from the inside they will find that their shots are going even further left so if anything I could only see that discouraging someone from finding the proper path.

You don't understand, slicers slice because the face is wide open at impact. So when you get them to "close it" it is usually just enough to allow them to draw it when the path is correct AND when you are teaching that person live and in person THEY will feel like its 40000* closed because they have never learned clubface control. Then you show them video that it is STILL probably not closed ENOUGH and eventually they start learning.

I guess if you were going this route I would think that you would require that the person HAS an open clubface as this would require that the swing on the proper path in order for the ball to end up at the target(push draw).

There is no slice on earth that doesn't come from an open clubface no matter the path; the face is open to the true path you have created from direction and down.

 

[Williamevanl]

If the path is the problem and the face is ok then all shots would be pulls. As Brian has stated many times on the forum " fix the face first". I agree.

And this makes the least sense to me, unless you subscribe to 'old ball flight laws' then a pull can only be caused by a closed clubface. These are ball flight basics, the balls starting line is 85% club face angle so a pull is caused by the clubface. Fix the face first by shutting it further for a pull? SS, you don't even believe this.

 

[dbl]

William, have you watched Manzella's Golf Channel submission? In it he proposes that a new golfer probably hit a shot at one point down the target line but with an open face and the ball went right to right. The newbie golfer then did what 85% of other newbie golfers do..."fixing" that by using an out to in path.

If you close the face further and the person is successful in swinging more from the inside they will find that their shots are going even further left so if anything I could only see that discouraging someone from finding the proper path.

But...why do object to what experienced teachers have experienced? Fix face, get left shots, then golfer (or teacher) reorients path. Voila.

Now, granted, there are some golfers who have combinations of atrocious swing faults that may also come in to play, like poor pivots and of course flipping. But getting at root causes which are 1 or 2 or even 3 levels deep are the GOLD of good instruction.

We know there are tons of slicing golfers, so you can just about conclude ipso facto that attempting to fix path first and then face...fails!

 

[Williamevanl]

Yup, you are. However, once that person can consistently hit just the pull, you just "gently" move their path and done. Also, if they are hitting a pull slice the face is wide open and no where near "square" or "shut."

Jim, a pull slice is caused by a club face that is shut to the target line(open to path) and a path that is outside in and I have a scholarly journal that outlines ballflight laws as confirmed by trackman. Google ball flight laws and click the first thing you see.