Developing PGA Tour Players

[Leepaul]

"When it comes to talent heading to the pro level.

The student makes the instructor. The instructor doesn't make the student. You either have it or you don't. An instructor can only activate the talent and hope they want it."


I agree, ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you carn't make him drink it"

 

[Richie3Jack]

IMO, a teacher is judged by how well they get their students to improve. My problem with the name teachers is many of them get fantastic talent and see themselves get worse after working with the name teacher. Michelle Wie is a PRIME EXAMPLE. Then you get those who pretty much plateau and those who do improve you can't help but get the feeling they did in spite of the name teachers influence.

That's why I agree with Brian that so many of these name teachers should have more kids that develop into quality tour players but they don't. Sure, the swing and 'game' isn't everything and you have to hope that the kid has their head screwed on straight and doesn't get burned out on the game, but with so many students getting worse or improving so marginally under these name teachers instruction, I often feel these kids are getting a raw deal with the instruction their parents are paying for.




3JACK

 

[vjsinger]

What do these name instructors charge?? If this has been discussed before, my apologies.

 

[Chip Putterman]

All I can say about Hank Haney is this: if he can't help a professional athlete (Charles Barkley) after months of lessons, why would any weekend hacker ever want to go to him for a lesson? Barkley could have gone to a swimming coach and accomplished the same thing. If you haven't seen his swing lately...it still SUCKS!

 

[Richie3Jack]

What do these name instructors charge?? If this has been discussed before, my apologies.

Michael Breed charges $500 for an hour lesson.

It ain't cheap. But they can get away with it because their demand is so high and their supply (time they have to give lessons) is limited.




3JACK

 

[vjsinger]

Michael Breed charges $500 for an hour lesson.

It ain't cheap. But they can get away with it because their demand is so high and their supply (time they have to give lessons) is limited.




3JACK

Wow..holy crap. I'm definetly in the wrong biz. I feel really bad for the mini tour player that has lessons with these guys...a mini tour player can't afford that huh?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Wow..holy crap. I'm definetly in the wrong biz. I feel really bad for the mini tour player that has lessons with these guys...a mini tour player can't afford that huh?

They tend to work out a deal with these guys where they get a discounted lesson. Believe it or not, many mini-tour guys may only get a lesson once a year. A lot of times it is just confirmation stuff.



3JACK

 

[Kevin Shields]

Im a teacher and i agree with Richie. If you can really play, you shouldnt need to spend that much time with a teacher unless its confirmation. I have a couple potential studs and the best thing i'm doing for them is expanding their short games, stroking their egos and teaching them how to manage around the course with their present game so they can go low. Alot of time is wasted at the Tour level beating balls in front of a teacher.

 

[vjsinger]

They tend to work out a deal with these guys where they get a discounted lesson. Believe it or not, many mini-tour guys may only get a lesson once a year. A lot of times it is just confirmation stuff.



3JACK

Ah..I went to the MEMORIAL this year and saw so many players with their coaches their. Leadbetter loves to hang out on the range and just be visible I think. Marketing 101

 

[mb6606]

What do you mean Brian? Are they not performing because of the teaching? Where are the kids that are making it coming from? I personally think that Leadbetter and Co. know enough of the "right stuff" to take raw talent and make it tour-quality. However kids without that natural gift are not going to make it anywhere even with Leadbetter coaching.

FYI - a local kid spent 1 year as a full time boarding student at IMG Leadbetter Bradenton at an approx. cost of $65,000. Last week the 16 yr old shot 92-86 in the state Jr tourney on a 6500 yd. 72 handicap rated course. Leadbetter has at least 200 kids go through the program each year. BTW LB's son attends the school.

 

[mgranato]

I don't see how it's any different than turning pro in any other sport. The odds are astronomically against even the brightest of talent. I've played with a number of basketball players who are as or more talented than many household name NBA players, but they either lacked the brain or the valentine to compete at the top. There is no formula to follow. Every college coach and pro scout does their home work, watches their films, talks to all parties, but in the end it's a fishing trip. And usually if you cast the biggest net you'll have the best chance of landing the most fish. Betting on or trying to predict how a 15 to 20 year old reacts is a guessing game AT BEST.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Ah..I went to the MEMORIAL this year and saw so many players with their coaches their. Leadbetter loves to hang out on the range and just be visible I think. Marketing 101

For those guys it's almost purely confimation stuff. Short game is generaly where the real teaching has to be done and many name teachers don't really know jack about that either. A lot of the players thinking, even on the PGA Tour, is that they have little control whether or not they get hot with the flatstick. They'll search for ways to get better, but believe it or not a lot of them think getting hot is luck. Almost like a baseball player doing superstitious things to start getting some hits.

I played a mini-tour even with Jason Gore once. PHENOMENAL striker of the ball. Hits it 325 with ease and is very accurate and hits pretty much all of the clubs in his bag well. But for the most part, he's a mediocre putter by tour standards. So what does he work on this year?

His swing.

If he putted as well as Tiger did, he'd smoke Tiger left and right and we'd be talking about him as being one of the all time greats. But he probably just feels that he has little control whether or not he can get putts to drop.

Personally myself I'm very anti-Leadbetter. I'm not sure how anybody could ever call him a great teacher or even a decent teacher for that matter. There's a reason why he got the nickname 'Lead-Poison' down in Fla. and on the Tour.




3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

Im a teacher and i agree with Richie. If you can really play, you shouldnt need to spend that much time with a teacher unless its confirmation. I have a couple potential studs and the best thing i'm doing for them is expanding their short games, stroking their egos and teaching them how to manage around the course with their present game so they can go low. Alot of time is wasted at the Tour level beating balls in front of a teacher.

Great post. The swing 'overhaul' is so vastly overestimated in the world of golf. Most golfers don't need and most golfers will only get far worse with a swing overhaul. Instead, improve the short game and course management and learn how to score low in tourneys and what goes on when you start to struggle with your swing and you'll see more improvement than overhauling your swing.




3JACK

 

[Zztop]

If he putted as well as Tiger did, he'd smoke Tiger left and right and we'd be talking about him as being one of the all time greats.



3JACK

"IF" The biggest word in the dictionary.

 

[vjsinger]

For those guys it's almost purely confimation stuff. Short game is generaly where the real teaching has to be done and many name teachers don't really know jack about that either. A lot of the players thinking, even on the PGA Tour, is that they have little control whether or not they get hot with the flatstick. They'll search for ways to get better, but believe it or not a lot of them think getting hot is luck. [HTM[/HTML]

If he putted as well as Tiger did, he'd smoke Tiger left and right and we'd be talking about him as being one of the all time greats. But he probably just feels that he has little control whether or not he can get putts to drop.

What should they practice to stay hot with the putter? How should they do that?

 

[jeffy]

What should they practice to stay hot with the putter? How should they do that?

At least one very good teacher I know (who teaches tour players) believes that fear of failure keeps a lot of them from really working on their putting. If Jason Gore knows he is a great ballstriker, he will always succeed if he "works" on his ballstriking; however, if he commits to becoming a better putter, he has a lot less confidence that will happen. Some players just won't go where they might fail.

How to work on putting? Pretty easy. Brian and Mike Jacobs had a ton of good information at the Long Island school in June. Geoff Mangum has great information, as does Stan Utley and many others. What is needed is a desire to become a great putter. Strange as it may sound, a lot of promising players just don't have that.

 

[Richie3Jack]

What should they practice to stay hot with the putter? How should they do that?

If they don't know how to really read greens, then they should learn. I would imagine that having the caddy do most of the green reading work is usually a bad thing. I've heard a few Tour caddies tell me the same thing, most of the great putters on Tour read their own putts without any caddy input and guys like Tiger more or less get a confirmation.

Also learning where to leave yourself for most makeable putts (uphill right to lefters are the most often made putts by golfers). Most of the guys know where to not go because it's death, but understanding a simple concept like that can help. They have the ballstriking and chip/pitch skills to leave themselves with those putts, something I don't have the talent to do.

And generally avoiding fallacies in putting, like your eyes should be over the ball, or the optimal speed is 17" past the cup and then understanding their stroke and what is the root cause to their problems and making the proper adjustment to eliminate that root cause to their problems.

It's really not that different from working on your swing. The same problems with the same instructors with the same flawed instruction. There is no 'one way' to putt, but most instructors believe that.




3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

At least one very good teacher I know (who teaches tour players) believes that fear of failure keeps a lot of them from really working on their putting. If Jason Gore knows he is a great ballstriker, he will always succeed if he "works" on his ballstriking; however, if he commits to becoming a better putter, he has a lot less confidence that will happen. Some players just won't go where they might fail.

I've read that as well, from Malcolm Gladwell's works. Great stuff.



3JACK

 

[willgolfer]

"IF" The biggest word in the dictionary.

you're starting to grow on me. good stuff.

 

[vjsinger]

Thanks Jeffy and 3Jack. Learning how to putt well is actually my greatest desire. I fiddle with different things constantly. Learning how to putt different ways, meaning cut across the ball like Billy Mayfair, hooking it like Bobby Locke..etc.etc. Thanks for the suggestions on the info. look-up. I'll check it out. I thought about buying Geoffs book.