EDZ's own version of 2-K

[EdZ]

A wise man once said....

"In the Geometry of the Circle the only thing that is not a straight
line is the circumference. Everything else is straight, chords,
tangents, radius, diameter, plane. Etc. There must be a constant
center and a constant radius. The proper geometrical relationship of the circle to the line must be established to produce a workable
procedure for applying a circular force to a ball so as to produce the same reaction as that produced by a linear force."

and

"Always strike the ball before full extension of the lever assemblies."

 

[corky05]

Ed, If you believe this quote you posted for us all to read, then you can't contradict yourself and say this,"THAT is why you can have a shorter radius, but still maintain the hands ON that plane, on that line, and go to both arms straight." A circles radius is not variable. Your quote below supports that.
Another post in here you say,"Great Spoke!. It was a great spoke that ran from (origin) Left shoulder to ball. You can see the arm and club shaft forming the spoke. And by this wise mans quote, it meets the criteria.

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

A wise man once said....

"In the Geometry of the Circle the only thing that is not a straight
line is the circumference. Everything else is straight, chords,
tangents, radius, diameter, plane. Etc. There must be a constant center and a constant radius. The proper geometrical relationship of the circle to the line must be established to produce a workable
procedure for applying a circular force to a ball so as to produce the same reaction as that produced by a linear force."

and

"Always strike the ball before full extension of the lever assemblies."

 

[EdZ]

Corky - you are still missing the fact that we are swinging INSIDE the larger circle, that defined at both arms straight.

There IS a constant center and a constant radius to that circle, but the HANDS can be INSIDE it. The whip motion INSIDE that circle. On plane of the hands/center. It is the HANDS that remain on plane.

"always strike the ball before full extention of the lever assemblies"

The circle I am talking about, the one with a stable center and constant radius is that defined at "full extension of the lever assemblies"

 

[corky05]

Ed, I really don't want to recreate what happened last week. Nobody enjoys it! Its the end of the month and I have to tie up a lot of paperwork. You always say you are attacked, however, your the one that makes personal attacks and have had posts removed because of your profane and colorful language. Yes, your ideas are attacked, for the benefit of everyone. If your ideas don't hold up under your own belief systems, how are they going to hold up under more widely recognized views? My previous post concludes that they don't.
Usually, what follows is you asking a whole lot of questions, of which we're supposed to respond quickly. This is how you put everybody on the defense, then you never have to answer the question that cornered you.

2 Questions For You!

Wiseman said radius is constant, how come your say model doesn't have to comply?


You say your model maintains lag throughout the entire circle. How do you have lag at both arms straight and beyond?

 

[EdZ]

Here is another image that might get this across to you:

(from John Jacobs book BTW)

Imagine a circle, with its center and full radius of a piece of string.

Now imagine that center point turned and 'wound up' the string around it. The string would shorten, the radius would shorten.

Agreed?

Now imagine that center unwound and 'whipped' the string back to full extension. Always on plane. INSIDE the circle, only touching it at 'full radius'

That is what I am describing.

Separate from a golf swing, do you understand this concept?

Now imagine that string is the line between your arms, and your hands are the 'rock' at the end/on the edge of the circle at both arms straight.

do you see how this 'whip' action works in the golf swing?

 

[corky05]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Corky - you are still missing the fact that we are swinging INSIDE the larger circle, that defined at both arms straight.

There IS a constant center and a constant radius to that circle, but the HANDS can be INSIDE it. The whip motion INSIDE that circle. On plane of the hands/center. It is the HANDS that remain on plane.

"always strike the ball before full extention of the lever assemblies"

The circle I am talking about, the one with a stable center and constant radius is that defined at "full extension of the lever assemblies"

Your are flip flopping. You concluded in posts above and numerous other posts that your radius is not constant. You have to stick to that . You can't change, now!

You can, but you lose credibility? As does your argument!

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by corky05


Wiseman said radius is constant, how come your say model doesn't have to comply?

You say your model maintains lag throughout the entire circle. How do you have lag at both arms straight and beyond?

See my last post re: the radius

re: lag at any point - that was talking about flails. If you have a flail on a horizontal plane, assuming you keep applying force, the swingle would never catch up with the handle. It would continue, with 'lag' around the circle.

 

[EdZ]

Dude - how many times do I have to say it before you get it? You are swinging INSIDE that circle. The radius of that circle doesn't change. It can't, your arms are a fixed length and both arms straight DEFINES the radius.

The radius of the HANDS to center is not constant, but the radius of the CIRCLE is constant.


Should you 'try' to keep the hands at full radius - YES - that is what extensor action is ALL ABOUT

 

[corky05]

What happened to the wiseman?

All of a sudden, he's not so wise?

Your wiseman stated that Radius is constant. Why are you recapitulating?

You are quoting John Jacobs now? Who is it? The Wise man? Jacobs? EdZ?

I'm going with the wise man. Not because its expedient, but because he is operating within the boundaries of science. We all have to!

Your model does not, therefore it fails the only test that matters!

 

[EdZ]

Corky - do you understand the string winding around center image?

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

What happened to the wiseman?

All of a sudden, he's not so wise?

Your wiseman stated that Radius is constant. Why are you recapitulating?

You are quoting John Jacobs now? Who is it? The Wise man? Jacobs? EdZ?

I'm going with the wise man. Not because its expedient, but because he is operating within the boundaries of science. We all have to!

Your model does not, therefore it fails the only test that matters!

The radius IS constant. You have a circle, you are inside that circle at all times. You position that circle relative to the ball and ground to ensure lag at impact and downward contact (well BEFORE full extension - before full extension of the lever assemblies)

 

[corky05]

Thats the problem Ed,(see red highlight) it is, with the existing/prevailing model. You are the one that wants to supplant the existing point of view. If you have the audacity to correct Homer, all one asks is that you back it up with science. Up to this point you have been completely incapable of that. In fact you have only reinforced existing beliefs, because your model doesn't hold up to basic physics , geometry, and science!
Your idea has been rebuffed at every forum on the web as, you search for acceptance from somebody, anybody? Its not a big conspiricy or attack on you!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Dude - how many times do I have to say it before you get it? You are swinging INSIDE that circle. The radius of that circle doesn't change. It can't, your arms are a fixed length and both arms straight DEFINES the radius.

The radius of the HANDS to center is not constant, but the radius of the CIRCLE is constant.

Should you 'try' to keep the hands at full radius - YES - that is what extensor action is ALL ABOUT

 

[armourall]

EdZ:

How do you define the angle of the plane if you only have two defined points (your "center" and "low point")?

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

Thats the problem Ed,(see red highlight) it is, with the existing/prevailing model. You are the one that wants to supplant the existing point of view. If you have the audacity to correct Homer, all one asks is that you back it up with science. Up to this point you have been completely incapable of that. In fact you have only reinforced existing beliefs, because your model doesn't hold up to basic physics , geometry, and science!
Your idea has been rebuffed at every forum on the web as, you search for acceptance from somebody, anybody? Its not a big conspiricy or attack on you!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Dude - how many times do I have to say it before you get it? You are swinging INSIDE that circle. The radius of that circle doesn't change. It can't, your arms are a fixed length and both arms straight DEFINES the radius.

The radius of the HANDS to center is not constant, but the radius of the CIRCLE is constant.

Should you 'try' to keep the hands at full radius - YES - that is what extensor action is ALL ABOUT

You have shown you do not understand my position. There is NOTHING in it that isn't supported by science AT ALL.

Do you understand the string winding around the center image? That in such an image, you would have a circle, a constant circle, and that as you wind the string and unwind the string it would 'snap straight' back to 'full extension'? It would be 'inside' the circle.

Please answer - yes or no - do you understand this?

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Your circle moves, mine does not, and that is the point.

EdZ,

A couple of questions about your swing model: (a) where is the swing center of your circle located? (b) where is the bottom of the circle located at address?

 

[bcoak]

EdZ:"The motions of the body are all about moving the HANDS, and the hands move the club. The hands stay on plane with center."
EdZ, taking the above plus your top/string example, I am finding it difficult to see how you would generate any power. Where does the power come from?
I went back and looked at Brian's pivot article (backswing) and there is definately a movement away from the ball, in your view where does the center go in this move (it is the last pic, where he is holding the club across his chest)? It would alos appear that in the pics in the aforementioned article, where he is "playing the paino" your view would result in the one he states as incorrect (no movement). Does that correctly portray what your are trying to state? If not, can you use thos e pics.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by armourall

EdZ:

How do you define the angle of the plane if you only have two defined points (your "center" and "low point")?

the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stay on ITS plane as well.

 

[bcoak]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by armourall

EdZ:

How do you define the angle of the plane if you only have two defined points (your "center" and "low point")?

the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stays on ITS plane as well.

Hogan's plane of glass?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Mathew
I honestly believe that Homer was spooky intelligent. I remember once hearing an old chinese proverb which has always been of great importance to me when learning which I think has relevance here. The cup has to be emptied before it can be refilled. See how often that this applies in your life and embrace it because it is a true path of learning.

Mathew,

Homer Kelley was indeed 'spooky intelligent.' Without hesitation, I use the word 'genius.' He was without a doubt the most intelligent and most fiercely independent thinker I have met in my 58 years.

I realize this is not a philosophical thread, but I liked your Chinese quote and wanted to add my own along the same line:

"The shell must break before the bird can fly."

-- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

We all must keep chipping away from within whatever 'shell' we find ourselves. A life -- like Impact -- happens from the "inside out."

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Your circle moves, mine does not, and that is the point.

EdZ,

A couple of questions about your swing model: (a) where is the swing center of your circle located? (b) where is the bottom of the circle located at address?

The swing center is between the shoulders, at the base of the neck on your BACK, and you turn 'around' that point - hence in the backswing you can move the lead shoulder back, yet still keep your 'center' stable. On the downswing you turn 'under' that point. You turn 'through' AROUND and UNDER that point on your back, hence you can appear to move forward, and still keep your center. Any movement 'back and down' actually enhances your margin for error, because you have more fully ensured you will contact the ball before 'full' extension.

To use the string/center example - you have positioned the circle so that the string would 'drag' along the ground, and snap straight again at full extension, at both arms straight. You have ensured LAG by the positioning of the circle, and given yourself much, much more margin for error than if you were trying to straighten exactly at impact (standard flail, standard TGM view with much LESS margin for error).

The bottom of the circle is under the ground, ahead of the ball. The only 'possible' time that would not be true is if you setup with a very 'centered' ball position and took no divot. That approach would give you very, very little margin for error and would limit your ability to turn fully 'around' center.

At impact fix, you have a bent right arm still, you have not 'fully extended' At fix, the proper extension is DOWN UNDER THE GROUND, in front of the ball, but because you have right wrist bend, you have further increased your margin for error, and futher ensured lag. The amount of axis tilt and right wrist bend changes based on ball position.

The thing I keep saying, and some keep ignoring, is that NOTHING I AM SAYING IS IN CONFLICT with TGM or with science. I believe Homer understood this, but got his perspective wrong by focusing on the 'moving' left shoulder.