EDZ's own version of 2-K

[EdZ]

Lynn - I have no disagreement that things must 'catch up' to an inline condition. The ONLY place I disagree with TGM in regard to lag is WHEN that in line condition is achieved. I see that it is achieved LATER than Homer did, thus ensuring lag.

Read my post re: rope swinging and a longer rope. I don't think Homer was 'wrong' to view the rope as verticle at impact, I think he didn't account for the 'longer section of rope' that would be 'under the ground', it would still not be straight, and would straighten at both arms straight, perpendicular to the shoulder line, well after impact.

Let's stick to this one, and use the rope as our reference.

 

[bcoak]

But remember the bad date who says, “Enough of me talking about myself – what do you think about me?”

 

[EdZ]

Spanker - your right forearm still would point to the plane line (target line) at impact. It is the upper arms, elbow to shoulder, not the forearms that more closely define the plane I am talking about.

Why do you say "forearms attempt to stay level" in the backswing? Elbows stay the same distance apart and pointing down - but I don't recall saying anything about level forearms?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
The radius IS constant. You have a circle, you are inside that circle at all times. You position that circle relative to the ball and ground to ensure lag at impact and downward contact (well BEFORE full extension - before full extension of the lever assemblies)

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

First, or the record, there is only one Lever Assembly, and that is of the Left Arm and Club. The Right Arm drives that Lever Assembly (actively with Hitting or passively with Swinging). It is not a Component of the Lever Assembly.

Second, please explain why your Theory demands that both arms be straight. The geometrical concept of a radius is one straight line -- not two -- from the center of a circle to its circumference.

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by armourall

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by armourall

EdZ:

How do you define the angle of the plane if you only have two defined points (your "center" and "low point")?

the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stay on ITS plane as well.

Those three points define a line, not a plane. (Are there any other reference points that determine whether the baseline of your plane is square, closed or open?)

Also, to clarify the angle of your line/plane above, it is drawn (in a down the line view) from the point on the spine between the shoulders through pp#1? This intersects the ground well inside the target line, correct? And the hands remain on this plane for the entire swing? Am I missing something?

Ed?

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
The radius IS constant. You have a circle, you are inside that circle at all times. You position that circle relative to the ball and ground to ensure lag at impact and downward contact (well BEFORE full extension - before full extension of the lever assemblies)

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

First, or the record, there is only one Lever Assembly, and that is of the Left Arm and Club. The Right Arm drives that Lever Assembly (actively with Hitting or passively with Swinging). It is not a Component of the Lever Assembly.

Second, please explain why your Theory demands that both arms be straight. The geometrical concept of a radius is one straight line -- not two -- from the center of a circle to its circumference.

Do you agree or disagree on the importance of both arms straight?

Lynn - you know that I am talking about ONE straight line, from the swing center to the hands.

Please address my 'longer rope' example.

 

[Turfspanker]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Spanker - your right forearm still would point to the plane line (target line) at impact. It is the upper arms, elbow to shoulder, not the forearms that more closely define the plane I am talking about.

quote:
EdZ - the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stay on ITS plane as well.

Why do you say "forearms attempt to stay level" in the backswing? Elbows stay the same distance apart and pointing down - but I don't recall saying anything about level forearms?

Couldn't find a reference on the forearms either Ed. But other than that, do you believe that I understand?

Like Yoda, I have a basic issue with the release sequence.
I also don't see how the image is useful, even though you are attempting to correct 2K (edited), I think that is premature until you have a deeper understanding of TGM. Save those major edits until you obtain a GSED.

I have to say, Yoda and Brian are extremely patient with all of this. I hope something good comes from it. I don't see much value other than simplification. See 1-B SIMPLICITY.

Later,

Spanker

 

[corky05]

"Do you agree or disagree on the importance of both arms straight?"

Disagree! Your golf ball isn't effected by this Ed. Your golf ball is long gone, down the fairway. I'd rather my focus be on things that are impacting impact and separation.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by armourall

quote:Originally posted by armourall

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by armourall

EdZ:

How do you define the angle of the plane if you only have two defined points (your "center" and "low point")?

the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stay on ITS plane as well.

Those three points define a line, not a plane. (Are there any other reference points that determine whether the baseline of your plane is square, closed or open?)

Also, to clarify the angle of your line/plane above, it is drawn (in a down the line view) from the point on the spine between the shoulders through pp#1? This intersects the ground well inside the target line, correct? And the hands remain on this plane for the entire swing? Am I missing something?

Ed?

Yes, it intersects the ground inside the target line, on a parallel line to the target line. Yes, the HANDS remain on this plane, to be specific, PP1 stays on this plane. It is, in effect, the turned shoulder plane as defined in TGM.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
At impact fix, you have a bent right arm still, you have not 'fully extended' At fix, the proper extension is DOWN UNDER THE GROUND, in front of the ball,

Lever Extension (2-P) is a Left Arm and Clubshaft concept. It is not at all dependent on Right Arm Extension. In fact, in the best Strokes, Full Extension of the Right Arm does not and must not occur until well after Full Extension of the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club).

Bottom line: Even at Low Point -- which you continue to define as being under the ground when in fact it may be on or above the ground -- the Right Arm is Bent. It is only at the of the Follow-Through (8-11) -- which occurs well after Low Point that both Arms are straight (6-A-4).

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Do you understand the string winding around the center image? That in such an image, you would have a circle, a constant circle, and that as you wind the string and unwind the string it would 'snap straight' back to 'full extension'? It would be 'inside' the circle.

Your 'winding and unwinding string' image demands a Rotated Shoulder Turn (in both directions); Zero Axis Tilt; and hence, Zero Weight Shift. This means Low Power.

So, however else you choose to think of it, what you have described in your image (as a substitute for Mechanics to produce a correct Feel) is a Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-16-C) with a Shiftless Hip Turn (10-14-C) and a Circle Path Delivery (10-23-E).

I would seriously advise playing downwind only.

No Lynn, you do not understand my position at all.

Tell me how your 'winding and unwinding string' image differs -- in the least little bit -- from the Stroke Pattern I have described. At this time, I respectfully request zero deviation from that assisgned task.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Turfspanker

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Spanker - your right forearm still would point to the plane line (target line) at impact. It is the upper arms, elbow to shoulder, not the forearms that more closely define the plane I am talking about.

quote:
EdZ - the angle of the plane is defined between 'center' and PP1, (the hands), and an extension of that line to the ground. You can also see this as the angle defined by the 'undersides' of both arms at address, to the butt of the club, again, with an extension to the ground as the third point.

It is the hands that stay on plane around the swing center. No other body part stays on that plane, but the left arm comes 'close' to it going back and the right arm comes 'close' to it going through, however it is always 'between the arms'.

the right elbow does stay on ITS plane as well.

Why do you say "forearms attempt to stay level" in the backswing? Elbows stay the same distance apart and pointing down - but I don't recall saying anything about level forearms?

Couldn't find a reference there either Ed. But other than that, do you believe that I understand?

Like Yoda, I have a basic issue with the release sequence.
I also don't see how the image is useful, even though you are attempting to correct 2H, I think that is premature until you have a deeper understanding of TGM. Save those major edits until you obtain a GSED.

I have to say, Yoda and Brian are extremely patient with all of this. I hope something good comes from it. I don't see much value other than simplification. See 1-B.

Later,

Spanker

You have come closer than anyone else to understanding my position, yes.

Simplification IS a value, yes. Clarifying parts of TGM that have appeared, by strict reading of TGM, to be in conflict, yet are in practice, effective - explaining WHY several things that appeared to be inconsistent, ARE actually consistent. That is a value.

People are attacking me like I don't appreciate TGM, but I most certainly do. People are attacking me like I don't understand TGM at all, yet I am trying to ENHANCE it with a new perspective to 2K that explains and clears up a lot.

Go back to the 'longer rope' post and inccubate on it for a while. I think you guys are jumping to conclusions about how I view release sequence. I don't disagree with Homer. I just think that the sequence is a 'little' more delayed than Homer did. So that the rope would be straight at both arms straight. It would 'appear' straight at impact - because the end under the ground is the last to straighten.

Again, the 'longer rope' example is a pretty good summary of my views on release/lag.

Lynn - we can agree to disagree, but as long as there are TWO hands on the club, the center is the base of neck/between the shoulders. It has to be. At impact, the right arm is not yet straight, there is bend in the right wrist - all helping to ensure lag - because the true radius is under the ground.

Let's stick on the topic of the 'longer rope'. I'd like to hear more of what people think about that drill/image/concept.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Let's go back to the string example and relate it to something many of you do understand - rope swinging.

In rope swinging per current TGM, you swing a rope so that it is straight - verticle - at impact.


Lynn - does this help you see where I am going with the correction to 2K?

Not in the least. And it is posts such as the above that builds the Stumbling Block higher and higher.

For the record, the 'rope,' i.e., the Swinger's Clubshaft, is always straight. It is pulled into that condition by Centrifugal Force.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Do you understand the string winding around the center image? That in such an image, you would have a circle, a constant circle, and that as you wind the string and unwind the string it would 'snap straight' back to 'full extension'? It would be 'inside' the circle.

Your 'winding and unwinding string' image demands a Rotated Shoulder Turn (in both directions); Zero Axis Tilt; and hence, Zero Weight Shift. This means Low Power.

So, however else you choose to think of it, what you have described in your image (as a substitute for Mechanics to produce a correct Feel) is a Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-16-C) with a Shiftless Hip Turn (10-14-C) and a Circle Path Delivery (10-23-E).

I would seriously advise playing downwind only.

No Lynn, you do not understand my position at all.

Tell me how your 'winding and unwinding string' image differs -- in the least little bit -- from the Stroke Pattern I have described. At this time, I respectfully request zero deviation from that assisgned task.

OK - now, to start, let me clarify what 'you' think I am saying.

Let's look at a horizontal swing. Hands held out in front of you.

Is that the 'extreme' you think I am talking about?

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
At impact fix, you have a bent right arm still, you have not 'fully extended' At fix, the proper extension is DOWN UNDER THE GROUND, in front of the ball,

Lever Extension (2-P) is a Left Arm and Clubshaft concept. It is not at all dependent on Right Arm Extension. In fact, in the best Strokes, Full Extension of the Right Arm does not and must not occur until well after Full Extension of the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club).

Bottom line: Even at Low Point -- which you continue to define as being under the ground when in fact it may be on or above the ground -- the Right Arm is Bent. It is only at the of the Follow-Through (8-11) -- which occurs well after Low Point that both Arms are straight (6-A-4).

Lynn - you are still unable to alter your perspective to the view of 2K I am talking about.

you said:

in the best Strokes, Full Extension of the Right Arm does not and must not occur until well after Full Extension of the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club).

Yes, yes, yes - ABSOLUTELY - Under Homer's view of 2k, that is 100% correct. AND in my view of 2K, that right arm extension being WELL AFTER impact is explained. It more fully explains WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

I don't disagree with WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

What I have been, and continue to, talk about is WHY IT IS THAT WAY.

Part of the problem is that you are still stuck thinking about the club, and I am talking about the force that you generate and apply.

Let's stop talking about the club for a moment, and look just at the hands and arms. As you mentioned, the right arm doesn't fully straighten until 'well after impact'.

Why do you feel that is the case? What do you feel is the advantage of that? Why not have it straight 'just after' impact? or even 'at' impact?

We both agree on something, that the right arm shouldn't be straight until well after impact. Now lets see if we can agree on WHY that is good.

 

[bcoak]

Holenone: Tell me how your 'winding and unwinding string' image differs -- in the least little bit -- from the Stroke Pattern I have described. At this time, I respectfully request zero deviation from that assisgned task.

you want everyone to answer your questions Ed, now its your turn.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Lynn - I have no disagreement that things must 'catch up' to an inline condition. The ONLY place I disagree with TGM in regard to lag is WHEN that in line condition is achieved. I see that it is achieved LATER than Homer did, thus ensuring lag.

Read my post re: rope swinging and a longer rope. I don't think Homer was 'wrong' to view the rope as verticle at impact, I think he didn't account for the 'longer section of rope' that would be 'under the ground', it would still not be straight, and would straighten at both arms straight, perpendicular to the shoulder line, well after impact.

Let's stick to this one, and use the rope as our reference.

Ed,

Your post above makes clear that, unfortunately -- and I mean this sincerely -- you simply do not understand The Golfing Machine.

 

[Turfspanker]

quote:Originally posted by bcoak

Holenone: Tell me how your 'winding and unwinding string' image differs -- in the least little bit -- from the Stroke Pattern I have described. At this time, I respectfully request zero deviation from that assisgned task.

you want everyone to answer your questions Ed, now its your turn.

Let's all back out of this thread and let Ed defend his Thesis with the GSED.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
The radius IS constant. You have a circle, you are inside that circle at all times. You position that circle relative to the ball and ground to ensure lag at impact and downward contact (well BEFORE full extension - before full extension of the lever assemblies)

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

First, for the record, there is only one Lever Assembly, and that is of the Left Arm and Club. The Right Arm drives that Lever Assembly (actively with Hitting or passively with Swinging). It is not a Component of the Lever Assembly.

Second, please explain why your Theory demands that both arms be straight. The geometrical concept of a radius is one straight line -- not two -- from the center of a circle to its circumference.

Do you agree or disagree on the importance of both arms straight?

Lynn - you know that I am talking about ONE straight line, from the swing center to the hands.

It is necessary for both Arms to be straight only at the end of the Follow-Through. The Follow-Through occurs after Impact and after Low Point.

My comment referred to your own posts that describe the full radius as not occuring until both Arms are straight. It was that assertion that I challenged and invited you to explain.

You have chosen instead to employ the 'you know what I meant' smokescreen. But even an acceptance of that smokescreen does not explain why a 'line from the swing center to the Hands' requires both arms straight.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Dude - how many times do I have to say it before you get it? You are swinging INSIDE that circle. The radius of that circle doesn't change. It can't, your arms are a fixed length and both arms straight DEFINES the radius.

The radius of the HANDS to center is not constant, but the radius of the CIRCLE is constant.


Should you 'try' to keep the hands at full radius - YES - that is what extensor action is ALL ABOUT

EdZ, the ONLY way a person can maintain the radius you speak of is by keeping both arm straight at all times. So are you now suggesting the best way to swing a club is without any 1st Accumulator?