February '04 - Get in Position to Play Your Best!

Status
Not open for further replies.
quote:Originally posted by hue

quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

Brian,

IMHO, excessive bend at address pushes the weight too far into the heels. This causes the club to work in to quickly and the posture to become more upright at the top as the weight works more into the toes. The clips of your 8 iron show this in my opinion. No offense intended, just a topic of conversation and a way for all of us to learn.

Brady


Redgoat/Brady: Why does excessive bend at address cause the posture to become more upright at the top? I made some swings with over excessive bend at address and this did cause me to lift at the top. These were swings with more bend than shown in Brian's pics. At what point in your opinion does the bend at address go from being correct to excessive? Could you post a few pics to demonstrate what you mean? Maybe you could draw some lines on Brian's pics to show how your set up differs and is more upright. I take it that it is the angle of the spine from the hips rather than Brian's rounded humpty back upper body at address that you are taking issue with. So do you like Brian's rounded humpty back upper body? Thanks
Not Brady, but...

The club will tend to go where the weight is set at address. If the weight is on the heels, the golfer will get inside early and HAVE TO lift to the top to get into a decent position. To maintain equilibrium the golfer will rise on his toes and straighten his hip bend.

"However, my Trojans would still work over the Tigers."

YUP!![^]
 
Perhaps this is a good place for this as the positions at address I mention below also effect weight (heel to toe) and spine angle?

I have read TGM as per list 1 and 2. Also have probably read most chapters 2 or 3 more times. I have read most posts here and at TGM site.
I think I have now gained an overview of book and it's purpose however could not carry on an intelligent conversation re. any details of it's contents!
However I could look a a vid of a swing and discuss the various angles and positions of the club and body components.
At age 72 I may not live long enough to complete this project!

My question: Where in the book does HK discuss the verticle angle formed by the left arm (right handed golfer) and the club shaft( maybe better stated as angle of left arm to left hand)?

Perhaps this will add some clarification: I understand 4. and 5. but can find no picture or text that discusses the arching or cocking of the left hand at adress?

Manipulating from arched to cocked (raising or lowering my hands at address) has an obvious influence on my positions during the backswing, from beginning all the way to the top. i.e. Arched- club goes back more inside, right elbow wants to stay close to right side, hands only get shoulder high. Cocked- clubhead stays outside of hands on take a way, right elbow seperates from body, hands much higher at top.

Obviously the angle/plane of my left arm is quite different at the top using an arched or cocked address position of the left wrist.
 
Ok guy's now i'm really confused on the shaft leaning back in the face on picture. I've got Chuck Evan's Video " How to build a golf Swing",
in the video his says to play the clubs like the manufactor designed them. So if your hands hang down in the middle of the thigh naturally
and you grab the club the shaft would lean forward,Right? Would you intentionally move your hands toward the center of your body?
I'm i just missing something here? Sorry for the rambling, just a little confused.

Ropehook
 

EdZ

New
Another note re: the shaft leaning back that is important to note - it actually makes it 'easier' to get a flat left wrist at the top.

When your right forearm and elbow work properly, they are the 'guide' for your left hand/thumb/flat left (see my post re: the left thumb). At about halfway back, (when your right forearm is parallel to the ground, and your forearms/elbows are basically 'level', pointed down, and pivoting around/up the right elbow and forearm), the initial 'cup' of the lead hand (and thumb) becomes on plane, and flat - from there, your continued shoulder turn (get that left shoulder under your chin), takes the package to the top. A vast majority of players move their right elbow too much in the takeaway, and too far behind them, it must point down.

Brian - how do you feel about the 'swing jacket'? In my view, it is the one aid that 'clearly' lets you feel that right arm/elbow motion. If you know the feel, other aids will give this (momentus, medicus even, your favorite ;). The major, major problem with the jacket is that it is WAY too restrictive, and in my opinion, should never be used for anything but takeaway practice, and small pitch shots. It keeps the arms too connected to the body, but is the right feel hip to hip. Good to borrow from someone, not to buy, but I've used it with some students with success.

Another way to look at this hand position - imagine a basketball suspended next to your hands at address, the back of your right hand touching it.

When you start the takeaway, the extremes of motion would be to either a) roll your hands over it b) roll your hands 'under' it or c) push it straight back, very slightly inside due to body turn.

That hand position makes the correct option 'c' a lot easier.

The same holds true on the through swing, over, under or straight through and back inside.

On the through swing you want to feel 'a', 'over the ball.'

So the mid body hands let you go from c to a in terms of forearm rotation, and the folding right elbow helps keep it all on track

ropehook - if your grip is neutral, your hands will hang in the center of your body. The best way to get there is to feel the upper arms against the chest a (basically) equal amount (take your grip with the hands held out in front of you, elbows bent a touch, arms against upper chest, and then just straighten the arms and bend from the hips to get the club behind the ball, then bend the knees untill you are perfectly balanced.

Always focus on balance.
 
EdZ,
Thanks,that makes sense. When i setup i have two knuckles visable on the left hand, so I assume that's my neutral grip. When I setup does
the inside of my elbows look straight ahead or are they facing each other? The reason I ask is because if I got them facing outward I seem to hit the ball alot more solid. Just want to clarify that as well.

Thanks,
Ropehook
 

EdZ

New
With every move in golf, there is a range of extremes that can work.. the main 'feel' would be that the inside of the elbows point up away from you, rather than towards each other or down - as Hogan says, elbows should point to the hip sockets (throughout the swing). The reality is that you can actually swing well with various starting postions, assuming they relationship and distance of the elbows is fairly constant (see Barber full swing, Palmer, and Runyan's short game)

For 'my' swing, I use a trigger right before takeaway of kicking my right knee in a touch, to get the weight on the inside of the foot, combined with a small move of my right elbow/upper forearm towards my belly button - a bit like Gary Players move, although I like to have much more relaxed arms that Gary appears to.

I wouldn't focus as much on the left elbow pocket facing up.... just to the hip bone with the elbow is OK. The important point is that they stay the same distance apart - which for most people, is a new sensation, because the right elbow will tend to move farther away from the left as you take the club back.

Watch film of tour players - the right elbow stays on its plane

Be careful about tension... the swing is a free flowing motion to a target. When you setup, AND when you swing, the less you DO and the more you REACT the better. Your arms should hang, while the rest of your body is in balance.

A proper setup has you in a dynamic, relaxed, athletic BALANCED postion. A proper swing keeps you in that dynamic balance until the ball has stopped.

I can not stress enough how much focusing on dynamic balance will help you.

Feel your balace at address. You want that same, "completely" balanced, feeling at your finish.

As Knudson says - connect your starting position, to your finish position, in balance.

Slow your swing down until you know what this means.
 

dude

New
Weight on heels or balls of feet?

It is my opinion and belief that an Olympic Hammer Thrower is a perfect model. Drill that could aid in this would be that of using and swinging a baseball or softball bat.

Now, I am quite sure all of us have been convinced through golf teachings that the weight should be on the balls of ones feet and no matter what is spoken of here will not change minds. Hopefully though, someone who has fought a balance problem will give it some consideration, and give it a try, and find an aid for improved balance.
 
I think balance should be set fairly evenly from balls to heels. If you are going to go toward one side or the other, I think the heels would be better. A club doesn't weight that much, but when you swing it at 100 MPH or more, it does. You arms also weigh a considerable amount. When your arms and club are straightening toward the ball, the weight of them will want to pull you forward. During your downswing, your pivot will tend to take your weight back toward your left heel. If you start on the balls, you need to move the weight backward coming down, but forces are trying to pull you forward. Mi****s and off balance swings are just about guarenteed.

I know many instructors...Flick off the top of my head...want you "athletic" and on the balls of your feet like a shortstop waiting for the batter to hit one to him. That sounds good in theory, but golf isn't baseball. You aren't going to be charging the ball and moving to it. You are trying to stay stable and braced.
 
I find that in a golf swing the weight should be more on the heels than the toes, say 70/30..60/40. The "athletic” position is on the toes ... for an infielder, linebacker, or a point guard. They most all be able to move quickly, back or forth, left or right. We, golfers don’t need to move quickly in the same way. The slight weight shift toward the heel for me has helped put me in that “Snead squat.” I also feel a direct line on the inside of my right foot connecting my heel and right toe. This inside feel line keeps my weight quiet during the weight shift.

One more thing, I have thrown all the weights in track, shot, discus and javelin The hammer is actually thrown off the heels, the others off the toes.
 

dude

New
quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee



One more thing, I have thrown all the weights in track, shot, discus and javelin The hammer is actually thrown off the heels, the others off the toes.

That is the point of my previous post. There is to much forward force being applied in a golf swing that is directly in front of us.

Thanks for nailing it down for me.
 
I don't buy the "forward force" argument for setting up on your heels. Setting up with weight too much in your heels actually forces the club back and behind you too much on the backswing (think of a seesaw- it moves towards the direction where more weight is).

When the club gets behind you, you're out of balance, and the body always tries to recover balance instinctively. This balance recovery occurs one of two ways: either you must lift the club to the top, or you must move the weight back towards your toes on the downswing. That forces the club outward, and is often the reason for the "out and over" move of most slicers- it's an attempt to regain balance due to poor weight distribution at setup. In fact, much of the reason why people often shank their wedges is because they start with their weight too much in the heels. In an attempt to regain balance, they get too much onto their toes on the downswing, which brings the hosel right to the ball.

To my mind, having the weight on the balls of your feet makes the most sense- it's the part of your feet where you're most centered. Not the toes, mind you- the balls of your feet. Just my 2 cts. worth.
 
Hue,

I don't mind Brian's rounded back. It is the distance his heels are from the back of his tush and how far his hands are from his body that I don't prefer. His right heel would look even further away if his stance wasn't slightly closed.

The body's posture will change because it is always searching for balance, too bent over will make you more upright and too upright will make you bend over.

Check out these pictures of two different body types, both with 7 irons(I think).

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=30141cca-ea8c-31fd-4256-17e76a187b5a&size=

Redgoat
 

cdog

New
I would NOT suggest going to the link AXEL posted unless you have good anti-popup software!!!
Network 54 site has got some serious issues right now with pop-up software, member of the SA forum are have serious problems.
 
quote:Originally posted by cdog

I would NOT suggest going to the link AXEL posted unless you have good anti-popup software!!!
Network 54 site has got some serious issues right now with pop-up software, member of the SA forum are have serious problems.
Cdog, the forum belongs to Geoff Mangum- a real putting expert. (He gave puttinglessons to Shawn Micheel before the PGA). He worked a lot on targeting and gaze. I asked him what he thinks about Brians adressposition and he gave me a few reasons why it is really good.

The popups go on my nerves too, but it's not too much work to click them away. Or are they harmful?- I haven't heard that so far.
Axel
 

cdog

New
Axel, over the past couple days, some people at SA have been invaded with pop-ups, it might be a temp thing, but it is affecting some puters. They even have a post there about it.
 

EdZ

New
Nice pics Redgoat.... you can see how well balanced both players are. Arms hanging.

Very important.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top