Hand Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands

[shootin4par]

when puttmad siad the pivot would not throw, "not the way I mean" you said he was 100% wrong. He made it very clear he was not talking about the pivot throw but an actual conscious throw of the hands, or as it seems another person calls it the cork screw. Puttmad said only one thing controls the throw he is referring to. when you throw a baseball if you allow the body to throw the hands you will get very little speed. The body assists the arms so they can throw with power. I understand it is sometimes hard to express in typing and that is why I suggested you talk with the Rover man and he has experience on both sides of this fence. open minds exploring possibilities lead us to the promise land.

 

[puttmad]

Er no....

I said NOTHING about being ABLE TO "throw" with something besides the pivot.

I said the PIVOT CAN THROW!

Got It?

Peace.

Sorry Brian, you are wrong on that one. The pivot doesn't really throw anything...

Easy to prove, simply do a "standing upright" baseball swing motion. You know, the one many players use when warming up....

OK, so you pivot to the right and the club goes horizontally to the right..the right elbow folds, the left palm faces the ground etc....
As you pivot around to the left the clubhead passes your hands (releases/throws) in front of you somewhere (equivalent to the impact zone if you were bending to the ball) and then continues around until you are facing the target to your left....

OK so do the same exercise, turn to the right on the "backswing," right elbow folds etc, but this time on the forward pivot, KEEP YOUR RIGHT ELBOW FULLY BENT....

You will now find your club does not release at all where it normally does, and as long as you hold that right elbow fully bent and keep you wrist cock intact, the club does not release (or throw) at all, from the start of the forward swing to the finish, when you are facing the target...

Indeed you WILL feel a pulling outwards in your fingers, which is a natural result of anything travelling around a circle, but this certainly cannot be described as a "throw."

Therefore, the pivot can't throw anything. Rather, the releasing or even deliberate straightening of the right elbow and relaxing the wrist cock ALLOWS the throwing to occur...

As I said earlier, only one thing ALLOWS any throwing motion, and that is the right arm...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Why would you try and "hold" anything?

 

[shootin4par]

Jim sometimes describing in written word is very hard to do. let me see if I can clarify a little what is being said. if you swung with loose arms, the clubhead would throw out, yes, just like the right hand would if you pivot for a baseball pitch. But in a baseball pitch the arms and hands are not just along for the ride, they are not just loose arms, they are not passive. The pivot throws the arms and hands, but the hands and arms throw themselves as well.

In the corkscrew/throw method, your objective is to rotate your right had clockwise on the downswing and point your left thumb straight down your left arm, consciously as fast as you can, faster then the pivot will do it. You try and do this right from the top, as in the 7th edition HK said you could do the release at any point.
so in the golfswing we get wrist cock at the top of the backswing. We have three choices from there
1. we can try to hold, like you know, a ver bad idea
2. we can allow it to uncock through the pivot. a better idea
3. we can uncock it with our wrists, left thumb pointing out and right wrist like your turning a doorknob. The amount you try to do this motion is up to you

 

[puttmad]

....

Why would you try and "hold" anything?

Jeez Jim, c'mon man..

I am not saying hold anything for the golf swing, that is just for the descriptive exercise on my last post TO PROVE A POINT, i.e. the pivot doesn't throw anything..........

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geez...

I can satnd upright, arms in a "maximum trigger delay" attitude, shaft level to the ground and make a "backswing" (did ZERO WITH THE ARMS) and and PIVOT ONLY DOWNSWING (of course my arms going along for the ride), and I'd knock you OVER, and send you to the HOSPITAL with the club that came out of my hands if I "let it."

In TGM-land, this is called "throwout action," and is considered a "throw."

"...Whether they THROW or are THROWN..." —Homer Kelley

The real problem is that "hitting it with your pivot," something that if you can do it and teach it helps 98.5% of all golfers, has been totally misrepresented by those who are on a misson to INVENT their own definitions of everything.

Folks, please listen:

Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot, with your hands giving the orders. You'll thank me for it.

 

[puttmad]

...

The real problem is that "hitting it with your pivot," something that if you can do it and teach it helps 98.5% of all golfers, has been totally misrepresented by those who are on a misson to INVENT their own definitions of everything.

I agree if that "thought" helps people hit the ball better that's great. But there are some of us who prefer to try and understand exactly what happens (or what causes what,) during that successful action (take Mandrin as one end of the spectrum...)...

Folks, please listen:

Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot, with your hands giving the orders. You'll thank me for it.

Great, so now it seems we are all at the same place....wish you'd said that in the first place Brian..

 

[tongzilla]

doing the work with your pivot with your mind in your hands is nothing new....this basic concept has been used by Brian and others for years. do a search on the forums.

 

[Brian Manzella]

doing the work with your pivot with your mind in your hands is nothing new....this basic concept has been used by Brian and others for years. do a search on the forums.

Thanks Leo.

 

[puttmad]

....

doing the work with your pivot with your mind in your hands is nothing new....this basic concept has been used by Brian and others for years. do a search on the forums.

Did someone say it was new?......

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Puttmad...What have YOU learned from Brian on his web site?

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad...What have YOU learned from Brian on his web site?

Ah...
Now that would be telling....

And then maybe he'd be asking me for some money....

Seriously, I come here because this forum does contain a wealth of information and ACTIVE enthusiastic golfers and teachers...

I understand next to nothing about TGM per se...If you tell me to activate pp#3 or fx#4, I don't have a clue what you are talking about, but if you tell me to activate the Quadratus Lumborum muscle and then the Spina Erecta muscle to make my backswing, I know exactly what you are talking about.. I am a long-time student of the golf swing and now an MAer out and out (I think everyone knows that by now..), but why should that prevent me from bouncing thoughts and scenarios off people here....
In the long run we are all looking for the same thing...a golf stroke/game that will carry from the practice ground to the course and give us all more enjoyment from the game we would sell our mother for to buy a new set of clubs.....

 

[mcflog]

Ah...
Now that would be telling....

And then maybe he'd be asking me for some money....

Seriously, I come here because this forum does contain a wealth of information and ACTIVE enthusiastic golfers and teachers...

I understand next to nothing about TGM per se...If you tell me to activate pp#3 or fx#4, I don't have a clue what you are talking about, but if you tell me to activate the Quadratus Lumborum muscle and then the Spina Erecta muscle to make my backswing, I know exactly what you are talking about.. I am a long-time student of the golf swing and now an MAer out and out (I think everyone knows that by now..), but why should that prevent me from bouncing thoughts and scenarios off people here....
In the long run we are all looking for the same thing...a golf stroke/game that will carry from the practice ground to the course and give us all more enjoyment from the game we would sell our mother for to buy a new set of clubs.....

What you are is a meddler. Why don't you start your own forum? I don't buy 100% of anything anybody is selling, but your doing a disservice to the forum, when so much time is wasted trying to undo or hash out your arguments. Nothing personal, but I've yet to see one positive thing come from any of your posts. Obviously what Brian teaches does by and large not gel with what your perception of the golf swing is...Fine as much MA love exists on the web..go find them. I read a lot of forums just for tidbits of information that may be pertinent to my game, but I refrain from posting... particularly at your frequency when it goes against the forums modus operandi. You are taking advantage of our hosts good nature and love of a good "fight" to steer the forum off course. I believe it is deliberate and it is not appreciated.

And since I just found out how to put someone on ignore I won't have to be bothered with you any further, I hope the powers that be make similar choices.

 

[hcw]

...I understand next to nothing about TGM per se...If you tell me to activate pp#3 or fx#4, I don't have a clue what you are talking about...but why should that prevent me from bouncing thoughts and scenarios off people here...

b/c when you (by your own admission) often "don't have a clue" what people (esp the BMGA pros) are talking about, but still proceed to tell them they are wrong, it's both confusing and annoying....which accounts for:

Folks, please listen:

Learn to wallop the ball with your pivot, with your hands giving the orders. You'll thank me for it.

Great, so now it seems we are all at the same place....wish you'd said that in the first place Brian..

..when actually Jim DID tell you that in post #11, you just didn't "have a clue"...

 

[puttmad]

....

b/c when you (by your own admission) often "don't have a clue" what people (esp the BMGA pros) are talking about, but still proceed to tell them they are wrong, it's both confusing and annoying....which accounts for:



..when actually Jim DID tell you that in post #11, you just didn't "have a clue"...

I didn't quite say that...give me credit for understanding basic English. Post #11 contained a statement I didn't agree with and I said so..and I still don't...
This is a public forum, right?...

 

[puttmad]

....

What you are is a meddler. Why don't you start your own forum? I don't buy 100% of anything anybody is selling, but your doing a disservice to the forum, when so much time is wasted trying to undo or hash out your arguments.

You know the phrase, "Ask a question and seem a fool for two minutes, is better than not to ask and remain a fool forever"...
That is what I do...
If the answer I get seems wrong to me, I say so..period. I don't care if it upsets you, thats just too bad. We are all different on this planet, perhaps that is the way I learn.....
BTW hashing out arguments is one of the best ways of clarifying something for EVERYONES benefit, as we all see and grasp things in different ways..

Nothing personal, but I've yet to see one positive thing come from any of your posts.

Ask Brian to sshow you a couple of the PMs I've received recently, then come back to me with that comment..

Obviously what Brian teaches does by and large not gel with what your perception of the golf swing is...Fine as much MA love exists on the web..go find them. I read a lot of forums just for tidbits of information that may be pertinent to my game, but I refrain from posting... particularly at your frequency when it goes against the forums modus operandi. You are taking advantage of our hosts good nature and love of a good "fight" to steer the forum off course. I believe it is deliberate and it is not appreciated.

I believe you are wrong...

And since I just found out how to put someone on ignore I won't have to be bothered with you any further, I hope the powers that be make similar choices.[/QUOTE]

No doubt Brian will tell me to get lost when he feels like it....

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

funny

I like how this one started but know I dont know what to post LOL

 

[golfbulldog]

mediation...

The weird and fascinating thing about golf is that Puttmad and Brian are both looking for a swing that has almost exactly the same "look" and "effect" yet both explain it in differing ways...

I understand Brian's theory more than Puttmad ( MA -style) because at least with TGM / Manzellish language ... you set out to achieve what you really achieve... "real IS real".... but in Mike Austin terms... you might be moving the real muscles but to teach everyone the "feel" of throwing from the top... even when you never DO throw it .... well that feel style teaching is limited.... Mike Austin never actually did throw it from the top.... he retained accumulator lag and probably lag pressure like the best of them ... what he felt was individual and not basis for teaching the globe...

Teach mechanics ( whatever way people need to feel it) and let their individual feels allow them to repeat it...

 

[mcflog]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/mcflog/ignore.jpg


And I could care less. You won't miss me anymore than I'll miss you, and like I said.... nothing personal, you're entitled to argue your "opinion" (we all have them, they all stink ) and I'm entitled to think that your wasting a lot of peoples time including your own. But maybe I'm wasting my time ..so, oh well. Seriously, best wishes.

 

[shootin4par]

Mike Austin never actually did throw it from the top.... he retained accumulator lag and probably lag pressure like the best of them ... what he felt was individual and not basis for teaching the globe...
QUOTE]
this statement comes across as absolute knowledge. have you studied mike austin? I dont mean look at his swing but rather study what he had to say. people look at his swing and see the lag and they they think that is the end of the story. Mike put people on machines to test muscular activity during the golf swing, many many years ago. He did the same thing as the scientists here are doing, he studied it scinetifically. I have said on here a few times, there is an Authorized instructor that some people on this board know. He did the MA method and the TGM way, Brian, give him a call and talk about the MA throw, there is nothing to loose.

In mikes later years, upper 70's, he still hit a 1 iron 280 carry, but he had his hips less then 15* open at impact, rather they look to be square and his shoulders are between square and 5* open, yet he still hit that 280 yard one iron. I ask you, how did he do that without his throw? How did he hit is so long being so square when he was so old?