Hand Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I think that are making a fundamental mistake by claiming that the right arm/elbow is responsible for powering the THROW just because it CONTROLS (allows) the throw. Surely, the power of the throw comes from the pivot - the hips shift-rotate and then the right shoulder turns actively down to the ball (powering the throw).

Look at this image - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Faldo-BackView.jpg

Note that Nick Faldo starts the downswing with a pivoting motion of the body - first, the hips shift-rotate to a square position and then the right shoulder will turn down and forward towards the ball. As the downswing continues, the right-side of the torso (right shoulder area mainly) will pivot around to the left and power the THROW that will happen when the right elbow releases the right forearm. It is true that the THROW is only fully completed when the right elbow releases, but the initiating move, which powers the throw, is surely a pivoting motion of the torso.

The same principle applies to a boxer that hits with full force. It is possible to apply a strong boxing blow by simply straightening a bent right elbow, but the force of the blow can be much stronger if the boxer throws the entire right side of his torso forward (in a pivoting motion) immediately preceding the release of the right elbow. In the second instance, one can conceive of the torso powering the blow (throw).

Jeff.

 

[starretj]

Thank you...

That is all I have been trying to say all through this thread...The pivot cannot "throw" anything unless the right elbow allows it.....

I believe that you are wrong again, you cannot help but throw the club with your pivot unless you resist it.

Jim S.

 

[bmctigue]

It wasn't the fall that killed him.....

I still disagree about the pivot (ON ITS OWN) throwing anything

It was the sudden stop.

 

[shootin4par]

puttmadd said the "pivot will not throw" brian responded to that one statement saying it was "100% wrong" which is correct, there may be other ways as well to "throw", but the pivot CAN throw so that statement is 100% wrong. Brian gave a correct response to an incorrect observation. The original post did not say the pivot is not the only way the club can be thrown. It said the "pivot CAN'T throw". Brian "knows" the pivot CAN throw so what's he suppose to say?. If you list alternatives you'll get a discussion, if you speak in 100% certainties that something CAN or CAN'T...your gonna get 100% thrown back at you.

MC, the words "pivot will not throw" is a MISQUOTE. If PUttmad had said that I woudl agree that is wrong. the quote that PUTTMAD said is "No it won't bts, NOT THE WAY I MEAN(check james Braid's corkscrew or MAs throw for reference.. Only one thing controls that)....,,,,,"

i believe it was brian who posted some numbers on how the golf swing, for tour players, recieved 85% of the power from the torso and and physics and how the other 15% was from an active arm motion. I dont remember the exact number or exact quote. But the point is that the hands and arms add some power rather then just along for the ride.

So in this throw we are talking about the CONSCIOUS motion that you want to make happen, not just allow it to happen because of the pivot. can take a greater share of the power.

in the golfswing we can do three things with the hands/arms. We cann resist the release, bad idea, we can allow the pivot to release, much better idea, or we can ASSIST the release by a hand and arm motion, that third option is a four barrel swing.
in the throw method/corckscrew, the hand and arm motion happens from the top at the same time of the pivot.

but my main point in this post is dont misquote someone and use the misquote to make someone seem wrong. read his words, ALL of his words, dont skip or delete words because then you take away meaning. If you do skip or take away words, acknowledge that you are not quoting.

 

[shootin4par]

Puttmad
Surely, the power of the throw comes from the pivot - the hips shift-rotate and then the right shoulder turns actively down to the ball (powering the throw)..

the power of the throw comes from the power of the throw. a conscious throw will produce power on its own with ZERO pivot. A conscious pivot will do the same as well, with zero throw, even if you resist. if you let your arms just be along for the ride and let the body throw them you would not throw a baseball hard, nor hit hard in boxing, nor would you cast a fishing pole well. the throw of the pivot and the throw of the arms equal to more throw.

 

[vandal]

How hard would a boxer hit if he never bent his elbows?.....

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

[shootin4par]

I still disagree about the pivot (ON ITS OWN) throwing anything,

puttmad, the pivot will throw the club out all on its own even if the arms are just limp noodles. just not as powerful, sorry bud but that statement is wrong.

 

[shootin4par]

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

doesnt a wood chuck chuck wood? so it should be how much wood does a wood chuck chuck cause a wood chuck does chuck wood. please correct me if I am wong on the wood chucking

 

[vandal]

doesnt a wood chuck chuck wood? so it should be how much wood does a wood chuck chuck cause a wood chuck does chuck wood. please correct me if I am wong on the wood chucking

Woodchucks don't chuck would, but ....

A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

 

[shootin4par]

too much to think about. the wood chuck, well if it could chuck wood, what kind of wood do we want him to chuck. a hard wood like pine or a soft type like white would. Does this wood chuck have a maximum participation pattern,, using all of the teeth to chuck, or does the wood chuck favor one side or the other. what is the delivery path of the teeth into the wood, what quadrant of the tree is it approaching from, etc...

 

[mcflog]

MC, the words "pivot will not throw" is a MISQUOTE. If PUttmad had said that I woudl agree that is wrong. the quote that PUTTMAD said is "No it won't bts, NOT THE WAY I MEAN(check james Braid's corkscrew or MAs throw for reference.. Only one thing controls that)....,,,,,"

Might have phrased it wrong, but this is the quote I was refering to.

With one exception Jim....it will not "throw" the club for you....

 

[puttmad]

puttmad, the pivot will throw the club out all on its own even if the arms are just limp noodles. just not as powerful, sorry bud but that statement is wrong.

S4p,

I said "on its own" you added "limp noodles" to the equation... Two different things....

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad

I think that are making a fundamental mistake by claiming that the right arm/elbow is responsible for powering the THROW just because it CONTROLS (allows) the throw. Surely, the power of the throw comes from the pivot - the hips shift-rotate and then the right shoulder turns actively down to the ball (powering the throw).

Look at this image - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Faldo-BackView.jpg

Note that Nick Faldo starts the downswing with a pivoting motion of the body - first, the hips shift-rotate to a square position and then the right shoulder will turn down and forward towards the ball. As the downswing continues, the right-side of the torso (right shoulder area mainly) will pivot around to the left and power the THROW that will happen when the right elbow releases the right forearm. It is true that the THROW is only fully completed when the right elbow releases, but the initiating move, which powers the throw, is surely a pivoting motion of the torso.

The same principle applies to a boxer that hits with full force. It is possible to apply a strong boxing blow by simply straightening a bent right elbow, but the force of the blow can be much stronger if the boxer throws the entire right side of his torso forward (in a pivoting motion) immediately preceding the release of the right elbow. In the second instance, one can conceive of the torso powering the blow (throw).

Jeff.

Jeff,

Do you keep an indoor practice club?

I have a cut down club that I use indoors. It is never more than an arm's length from my computer...
I don't just theorise about things, I do them there and then...
Someone says, "this does this" I test it out, there and then, for as long as it takes for me to understand what they are trying to say..

Don't you understand what I am trying to do here? I am trying to isolate the components.

The exercises I have stated in prevous posts are simply to isolate the pivot and the arms/hands as separate units, so I can assess their individual inputs..

My findings from doing the isolation tests:

If you merely pivot and don't allow ANY (and I mean ANY!) movement of the wrist, elbow (absolutely no bending) or shoulder joints in their sockets (in other words, lock them all), you will identify a certain speed that your arms/hands rotatate in front of you as you pivot...

Once you have done that, DO THE OPPOSITE...

Lock your pivot, DON'T ALLOW YOUR TORSO TO MOVE ONE IOTA, just swing the arms up and down from the shoulder sockets, The right elbows should bend and the wrists should cock. Then uncock on the way forward..

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ACTUALLY DO THESE TESTS and then come back and tell me which gave you the most clubhead speed....and which one threw the club the most...and which one ultimately that does the throwing...

I'm not interested in what Nick is doing, YOU do it....

 

[puttmad]

...

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Don't know. I'll let you know after I've chucked it out...

 

[shootin4par]

lets make sure we are all on the same page as to the meaning of the word throw. please read the whole definition and whole description http://www.answers.com/topic/throw

 

[mandrin]

Jeff,

Do you keep an indoor practice club?

I have a cut down club that I use indoors. It is never more than an arm's length from my computer...
I don't just theorise about things, I do them there and then...
Someone says, "this does this" I test it out, there and then, for as long as it takes for me to understand what they are trying to say..

Don't you understand what I am trying to do here? I am trying to isolate the components.

The exercises I have stated in prevous posts are simply to isolate the pivot and the arms/hands as separate units, so I can assess their individual inputs..

My findings from doing the isolation tests:

If you merely pivot and don't allow ANY (and I mean ANY!) movement of the wrist, elbow (absolutely no bending) or shoulder joints in their sockets (in other words, lock them all), you will identify a certain speed that your arms/hands rotatate in front of you as you pivot...

Once you have done that, DO THE OPPOSITE...

Lock your pivot, DON'T ALLOW YOUR TORSO TO MOVE ONE IOTA, just swing the arms up and down from the shoulder sockets, The right elbows should bend and the wrists should cock. Then uncock on the way forward..

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ACTUALLY DO THESE TESTS and then come back and tell me which gave you the most clubhead speed....and which one threw the club the most...and which one ultimately that does the throwing...

I'm not interested in what Nick is doing, YOU do it....

puttmad,

As you point out the torso is moving slower than the arms. Quite true. However I like you consider the action of a bull whip. The handle moves slowly yet the tip breaks the sound barrier.

If one looks for the maximum clubhead speed to be developed efficiently by the human body it is advisable to operate as a whip and let the slower massive parts in sequence develop and transmit their energy to more distal and lighter parts.

You should not remain fixed at only considering the motion which is possibly imparted by the torso and the arms but also consider the energy which is transmitted when the bigger parts decelerate, hence slow down.

Hence, I invite you to a major reconsideration of your philosophy. The apparent paradox is that there is both generation of clubhead speed through acceleration and deceleration of various body parts.

 

[puttmad]

....

puttmad,

As you point out the torso is moving slower than the arms. Quite true. However I like you consider the action of a bull whip. The handle moves slowly yet the tip breaks the sound barrier.

If one looks for the maximum clubhead speed to be developed efficiently by the human body it is advisable to operate as a whip and let the slower massive parts in sequence develop and transmit their energy to more distal and lighter parts.

You should not remain fixed at only considering the motion which is possibly imparted by the torso and the arms but also consider the energy which is transmitted when the bigger parts decelerate, hence slow down.

Hence, I invite you to a major reconsideration of your philosophy. The apparent paradox is that there is both generation of clubhead speed through acceleration and deceleration of various body parts.

M,

I am not disputing the role of the bigger components transferring energy to the clubhead, I understand that, plus the fact that during the swing, in order for the energy to be tranferred efficiently, the "slack" has to be taken up and that situation maintained during the downswing...

But that is not my point here...I am glad you bought up the bullwhip.. The high speed in the tip can only happen because the bullwhip is flexible (a flexible leverage system if you like). A rigid version wouldn't work, no matter how much energy you try and transfer from the handle (within reason..)...

The reason I am labouring this point is because I have a problem you guys don't...
Because of a badly healed injury, I can only cock my right wrist back half as far as you guys...
For years I couldn't understand why some of my friends who only had half a backswing could blast it way past me...

If I tried to get a flat left wrist at the top the right wrist would stop me achieving it, it would actually cause me pain in the right wrist...
The only way I could get a flat wrist was by pointing the right elbow forward at the top (elbows vey close together)... Obviously that is not conducive to getting the club on plane or hittiing the ball well...
So then I compromised by weakenig the left hand and strengthening the right hand grip. That allows me to get a flat left wrist at the top (which I consider paramount importance)....

While going through all this, I naturally made a close examination of the role of the right elbow...

I consider it to be the single most important joint/lever you utilise in your golfswing...many of the problems you get are caused by wrong use/application of that same right elbow...

So maybe what I am trying to say here is that perhaps the true importance of the right elbow is overlooked in favour of "resultant" descriptions....

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I agree with Mandrin. Your model is wrong. You talk about isolating the components. That's artificial and doesn't correlate with a "full golf swing" reality, because obviously clubhead speed will be less if you compare ISOLATED torso motion to ISOLATED limb motion. However, in a full golf swing, there is a sequence of movements.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/FofH-speed.jpg

The pivot involves hip/shoulder movements, which subsequently causes the arms and then the clubhead to reach maximum speed. The arms/clubhead would not reach maximum speed if the large muscle groups of the torso (which are slow-moving) didn't move first. The full golf swing is a sequence of movements, like a side-throw ball throwing motion.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/GolfPerfect-FofHarmthrow.jpg

In this series of images of Ben Hogan, he is demonstrating the sequence of movements involved in a side-throw ball throwing motion eg. third baseman throwing a ball to first base, or a baseball pitcher pitching a ball.

A ball thrower first inaugurates the side-throw ball-throwing action with a lower body (hip) rotation towards the target. Then, secondly and near simultaneously, the ball thrower lowers the right elbow to the hip area so that the right elbow leads the hands. The right shoulder is held back initially and only catches up with the hips in the latter part of the throwing motion just before the ball is released from the hands. The sequence of movements can be thought of as occurring in the following manner-: hips shift to the left and turn, and the lower body weight is simultaneously transferred to the left side => right elbow moves down to the right hip area with right hand held back behind the right elbow (after the right hip has "cleared" thus making space for the right elbow) => shoulders turn across the front of the body, while the hips continue turning, causing the right arm to be flung across the body (right arm becomes extended by a combination of centrifugal and muscle forces) => right elbow straightens, right wrist unhinges, and the ball is released.

Do you have any scientific evidence to demonstrate that the right elbow release generates most of the ball speed in a baseball pitcher's ball-throwing action?

Also, can you imagine Roger Federer being able to serve at 120mph if he didn't throw his body into the serve, or can you imagine a quarterback throwing a 60 yard pass if he didnt use his whole body to throw the ball?

Jeff.

 

[shootin4par]

if people want to use science then good. where is the scientific study of long hitters with square hips, or close to it at impact?. Mandrin have you looked into that one? Because they are doing it different, way different then tiger, but some are as long if not longer. You cannot scietifically analyze the color red and then say that is the science of color, you must analyze the whole spectrum. Square shoulders, square hips, and this gets them longer then most anyone else, why?

 

[mandrin]

M,

I am not disputing the role of the bigger components transferring energy to the clubhead, I understand that, plus the fact that during the swing, in order for the energy to be tranferred efficiently, the "slack" has to be taken up and that situation maintained during the downswing...

But that is not my point here...I am glad you bought up the bullwhip.. The high speed in the tip can only happen because the bullwhip is flexible (a flexible leverage system if you like). A rigid version wouldn't work, no matter how much energy you try and transfer from the handle (within reason..)...

The reason I am labouring this point is because I have a problem you guys don't...
Because of a badly healed injury, I can only cock my right wrist back half as far as you guys...
For years I couldn't understand why some of my friends who only had half a backswing could blast it way past me...

If I tried to get a flat left wrist at the top the right wrist would stop me achieving it, it would actually cause me pain in the right wrist...
The only way I could get a flat wrist was by pointing the right elbow forward at the top (elbows vey close together)... Obviously that is not conducive to getting the club on plane or hittiing the ball well...
So then I compromised by weakenig the left hand and strengthening the right hand grip. That allows me to get a flat left wrist at the top (which I consider paramount importance)....

While going through all this, I naturally made a close examination of the role of the right elbow...

I consider it to be the single most important joint/lever you utilise in your golfswing...many of the problems you get are caused by wrong use/application of that same right elbow...

So maybe what I am trying to say here is that perhaps the true importance of the right elbow is overlooked in favour of "resultant" descriptions....

puttmad,

There is no basic difference between a bull whip and an ensemble of levers, successively lighter in mass. Exactly the same scientific principles apply. Even in the simplest of representations, a double pendulum model, the inner segment slows down before impact, giving up part of its energy.

I agree that the trail elbow is important but I am sure that you are also aware of the dominant flavor of golf instruction, not that long ago, considering the right side as the villain and teaching to keep it quite and out of the way. Yet amateurs and pro alike played excellent golf that way for a long time.

What you might perhaps refer to is the feel that trail and lead arm can be used kind of as being ‘independent’. If you keep the lead arm inert and letting it bent somewhat at the elbow, the trail arm can work as the primary lever in the down swing, with the lead arm acting as a non rigid passive constraint (checkrein action).

You could then consider to be utilizing three levers instead of two, which is true when the lead side is dominant and in control. Three levers are more efficient for generating clubhead speed than having only two. Just trying to give some food for thought as I am sure that you are serious about your concepts.