Hand Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands

[mandrin]

if people want to use science then good. where is the scientific study of long hitters with square hips, or close to it at impact?. Mandrin have you looked into that one? Because they are doing it different, way different then tiger, but some are as long if not longer. You cannot scietifically analyze the color red and then say that is the science of color, you must analyze the whole spectrum. Square shoulders, square hips, and this gets them longer then most anyone else, why?

shootin4par,

Are you perhaps suggesting that most long hitters do have things aligned close to square at impact and that Tiger is more like an exception?

Anyhow, one gets more readily convinced of the complexity of the human body when doing some modeling, albeit modestly. Things can be looking quite different and still follow the same scientific rules.

If you load the shaft very quickly at the transition you can have the bigger body parts closer to square alignment at impact and still having used them quite efficiently. Starting more slowly and sustaining or possibly increasing the effort will lead more readily to open alignments at impact.

 

[shootin4par]

shootin4par,

Are you perhaps suggesting that most long hitters do have things aligned close to square at impact and that Tiger is more like an exception?

Anyhow, one gets more readily convinced of the complexity of the human body when doing some modeling, albeit modestly. Things can be looking quite different and still follow the same scientific rules.

If you load the shaft very quickly at the transition you can have the bigger body parts closer to square alignment at impact and still having used them quite efficiently. Starting more slowly and sustaining or possibly increasing the effort will lead more readily to open alignments at impact.

no, I was not suggesting tiger is the exception, actually when it comes to tour players more swing closer to him as far as hips and shoulders being open, of course not exactly that far open. The people who are the exceptions are the ones who are square. The squareness is what flies in the face of most tour players so you would think it would not work, but yet some of them are long, very long.
so in your findings how do you load the shaft and be square as in what you are talking about, what action is it that loads it this early for these types of players

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad

I agree with Mandrin. Your model is wrong.
Do you have any scientific evidence to demonstrate that the right elbow release generates most of the ball speed in a baseball pitcher's ball-throwing action?

Yes, ask a pitcher to throw the ball without extending the right elbow once it's been folded, not even by a millimeter..and the same with any wrist cock he's made on the "backswing".......

The one arm throwing example is not the best one to use to illustrate what I mean because it doesn't contain the lever system we have in our golf swing (both arms/both wrists)

 

[puttmad]

Jeff,
This is a truer comparison with the golf swing:
http://www.batspeed.com/research10.html

and "The Whip" theory..
http://www.batspeed.com/research02.html

 

[mcflog]

I'm just curious how we arrived at this absolute of "throwing with the arm" vs. "pivot only no arm". No one ever suggested that in any way shape or form. If Peyton Manning threw a football arm only he wouldn't throw it 30 yds. I've watched elite throwers of various objects, and you know what they work on....rotation, the core muscles transporting the throw. Down on one knee concentrating on the use of the hips and core to whip the arm around. It's a blended motion. I never heard "pivot no arm" from anybody advocating the use of the pivot.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad - you write -: "Ask a pitcher to throw the ball without extending the right elbow once it's been folded, not even by a millimeter..and the same with any wrist cock he's made on the "backswing"."

That's a crazy suggestion, which is totally impractical.

The golf swing is similar to a double pendulum swing action model.

See - http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/swing1.php?ref=golfcoast

Now, according to the model, one needs a lever to respond to the torque forces generated at the central hinge joint. If one emasculates the functioning of the lever system by not allowing the lever to move (as you suggest) then the whole system becomes non-operational. That's crazy!

The "true" reality is that the golf swing involves multiple forces acting at multiple points - large muscle groups (legs/torso) working at the central hinge point, right forearm forces acting when the right elbow is released, right wrist unhinging which can be passive (in response to centrifugal focrces) or active. I believe that maximum clubhead speed requires that ALL these forces act in concert, and this requires a sequential, synchronised motional phenomenon to occur in perfect harmony.

Regarding that batspeed website. Note that he states that a batter moves his lead foot forward to gain support for the body action that follows. The body action that follows is a rotation of the core, and not simply an arm action. The idea that a batter can generate high bat speeds without core rotation is not understandable from my perspective.

There is another torque force that we have not discussed.

See - http://www.batspeed.com/research08.html

One has to realise that there is a fulcrum at wrist level that is situated about 5" from the end of the clubshaft. In the golf swing, one applies maximum torque at wrist level by pushing forward on the clubshaft with the right hand while at the same time pulling back with the left hand. As that website states, the force pushing the right hand forwards comes from the large muscles of the central core (mainly the right shoulder girdle and right mid-upper torso muscles) + the gravitational weight of the right upper body as the torso twists downwards and forwards in the downswing, and this force is trasmitted through the right arm (which acts as a lever) to the clubshaft fulcrum (about 5" from the clubshaft end). The force is transmitted through the right palm to the left thumb as shown in this next photo.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SevenLaws-GripKnit.jpg

Right forearm muscle contraction can supplement this CENTRAL force, but I don't think that can replace this force in the full golf swing with a driver. In a short iron swing of about 30 yards distance, I can imagine the right forearm muscle generating ALL the needed force.

Jeff.

 

[mandrin]

There is another torque force that we have not discussed.

See - http://www.batspeed.com/research08.html

One has to realise that there is a fulcrum at wrist level that is situated about 5" from the end of the clubshaft. In the golf swing, one applies maximum torque at wrist level by pushing forward on the clubshaft with the right hand while at the same time pulling back with the left hand. As that website states, the force pushing the right hand forwards comes from the large muscles of the central core (mainly the right shoulder girdle and right mid-upper torso muscles) + the gravitational weight of the right upper body as the torso twists downwards and forwards in the downswing, and this force is trasmitted through the right arm (which acts as a lever) to the clubshaft fulcrum (about 5" from the clubshaft end). The force is transmitted through the right palm to the left thumb as shown in this next photo.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SevenLaws-GripKnit.jpg

Jeff.

JeffMan,

I have posted on this subject before. The paradox is that a golfer exerting a retaining torque actually generates more clubhead speed than one applying a positive wrist torque in the downswing. Only when the wrist torque is applied late in the downswing, just prior to impact, does it lead to a slight increase in clubhead velocity.

 

[shootin4par]

mandrin, can we discuss this?
The squareness is what flies in the face of most tour players so you would think it would not work, but yet some of them are long, very long.
so in your findings how do you load the shaft and be square as in what you are talking about, what action is it that loads it this early for these types of players?

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad - you write -: "Ask a pitcher to throw the ball without extending the right elbow once it's been folded, not even by a millimeter..and the same with any wrist cock he's made on the "backswing"."

That's a crazy suggestion, which is totally impractical.

Sorry Jeff,
You are totally missing the point here....this is to do with isolation, not golf swing practicalities

I asked you tp perform a couple of simple exercises, which you obviously have not done....

Get a swing speed radar, go and measure clubhead speed using the two scenarios I gave you, then come back and post your results...

 

[mandrin]

mandrin, can we discuss this?
The squareness is what flies in the face of most tour players so you would think it would not work, but yet some of them are long, very long.
so in your findings how do you load the shaft and be square as in what you are talking about, what action is it that loads it this early for these types of players?

shootin4par, all this is not real science but rather more educated guessing.

A long hitter needs full participation of all available body mass and associated muscles.

Optimum efficiency, re kinetic energy transfer, for the proximal parts is obtained when they have lost their speed before impact, to be able to fully transfer the associated kinetic energy.

If someone has more of a impulsive type of initial motion for the massive body parts he can have their motion arrested earlier than someone who starts a bit more smoothly.

Efficiency refers here to extracting the maximum from what is available. A big strong inefficient golfer can hence be longer than a tiny slender efficient golfer.

 

[shootin4par]

shootin4par, all this is not real science but rather more educated guessing.
Optimum efficiency, re kinetic energy transfer, for the proximal parts is obtained when they have lost their speed before impact, to be able to fully transfer the associated kinetic energy.

If someone has more of a impulsive type of initial motion for the massive body parts he can have their motion arrested earlier than someone who starts a bit more smoothly.

so let me see if I follow you.
by applying force at the beginning, right from the get go, we can still maximize the force and also have to apply less force at the target point? If we pivot hard from the top, correctly of course, then we dont have to pivot as hard through the rest? do you agree with those two statements?

 

[puttmad]

.

If someone has more of a impulsive type of initial motion for the massive body parts he can have their motion arrested earlier than someone who starts a bit more smoothly.

So what you are saying is that because the "impulsive" action player can arrest the movement earlier, those body parts consequently will be moving slower "at impact" than the "smooth" action player, thus transferring more energy to the outer parts (clubhead)?

 

[puttmad]

So that leads to the question:
How do you arrest those body parts?.....

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I think that the hip movement gets automatically "arrested" (slowed down in terms of forward momentum) when the golfer starts to hit against a "firm left side" (straightening left leg) which causes the pelvis and lower torso to pivot to the left around an imaginary axis situated in line with the left armpit. It is not so much a "slowing down" of the hip movement, as much as a change in direction of the hip movement from being down-the-line to being rotated to the left. It therefore doesn't require any conscious action on the part of the golfer.

The same automatic "arresting" phenomenon happens to the shoulders a few moments later when the left shoulder moves up and around to the left.

Jeff.

 

[shootin4par]

Mandrin,
when you get the time can you respond to #91 please?
thanks
neil

 

[Burner]

Mandrin,
when you get the time can you respond to #91 please?
thanks
neil

While you are waiting here is a clip from Mike Bender, Zack Johnson's coach, which might interest you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEm080v6ckY&mode=related&search=

 

[Garth]

While you are waiting here is a clip from Mike Bender, Zack Johnson's coach, which might interest you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEm080v6ckY&mode=related&search=

Wow.. that's really gonna help me from spinning out... NOT!
Not to say that couldn't help a few people, but the one thing I hate about those Golf Channel episodes is that they make it seem like "that's what everyone should do".

_

 

[shootin4par]

he said it is a good analogy of the physics but what he described would not maximize the kinetic chain

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
when you get the time can you respond to #91 please?
thanks
neil

shootin4par,

The kinetic chain is a model with neatly explains how linked bodies transmit their momentum/energy from proximal to distal when they successively decelerate or stop their motion, leading to large velocities at the distal periphery.

When most golfers start their swing from the bottom up and successively upwards and outward to the periphery they seem to closely follow this model. However instead of leaving the arms behind and starting to torque from the bottom up one can also have a different approach.

To get a feel for other approaches one has to appreciate that the large mass of the body when suddenly put into motion very quickly can gather relatively a lot of kinetic energy, even if the acceleration lasts only for a short time.

Fir instance if you are tightly wound up in the back swing and making a sudden impulsive vertical motion, a sharp sit down motion, you are injecting a fair amount of energy in the ‘system’ and large torques are created as a result.

Or for instance if you from the very start aggressively whip the lower trail side toward the ball, there is so much resistance that this action only lasts for a very short time but when slowed down it transfers its energy.

It is not usually mentioned in golf instruction books but impulsive motion is something to consider. The only golf book mentioning impulsive motion, I am aware of, is Gravity Golf by David Lee. However only to start the swing from address.

 

[mandrin]

he said it is a good analogy of the physics but what he described would not maximize the kinetic chain

shootin4par,

There is probably not one optimum golf swing for each and every golfer.

Whipping the club, upside down, with one arm is not realistic when relating to a real golf swing. Tomaselli does something similar on one of his videos on another forum. Golf is just not played that way. The angular inertia is very different, very much smaller, and indeed more readily handled by the small quick muscles of hands and wrists, than by a normal full two handed swing.

A weak point is mentioning club head and club shaft to move along a straight line down to the ball whereas it is very evident in the video that this definitely is not the case. I know his intention but it is poorly explained as he also seems mixing cause and effect when he first explains that the body picks up speed due to the arms swinging and than subsequently states that the sharp turning boat accelerates the skier.

Children playing ‘cracking the whip’, or a boat pulling a skier sharply turning, are typical 2D examples of effectively shortening the radius of rotation. This leads to increased velocity at the distal end. In the examples the radius changes from infinite to a finite value. However the club coming down from the top, notwithstanding Mike Bender and many others saying so, does not move in a straight line to the ball.

A 3D analysis is required. We consider the club coming down on an inclined plane. One can decompose this motion as a rotation in a vertical plane and one in a horizontal plane. When the body starts to rotate halfway in the downswing the component of motion in a horizontal plane experiences a sudden shortening of its effective swing radius. Increased peripheral speed results.

Bender’s model is really a 3D model. The sudden forceful rotational acceleration of the body halfway down will result in an out of plane motion of the club. BM’s letting the club drop vertically and ‘catching’ it with the pivot is a very similar but quite effective 3D swing model.

In general, any sudden changes of direction motion is worthwhile looking into. For instance purposely allowing a bit of slack in the lead arm to be able to initially move deftly away from the target leads to a sudden change of direction. This specific move is mentioned in some golf instruction books as for instance in “Such a Little Secret”.