Hand Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands

[mcflog]

Mike Austin never actually did throw it from the top.... he retained accumulator lag and probably lag pressure like the best of them ... what he felt was individual and not basis for teaching the globe...
QUOTE]
this statement comes across as absolute knowledge. have you studied mike austin? I dont mean look at his swing but rather study what he had to say. people look at his swing and see the lag and they they think that is the end of the story. Mike put people on machines to test muscular activity during the golf swing, many many years ago. He did the same thing as the scientists here are doing, he studied it scinetifically. I have said on here a few times, there is an Authorized instructor that some people on this board know. He did the MA method and the TGM way, Brian, give him a call and talk about the MA throw, there is nothing to loose.

In mikes later years, upper 70's, he still hit a 1 iron 280 carry, but he had his hips less then 15* open at impact, rather they look to be square and his shoulders are between square and 5* open, yet he still hit that 280 yard one iron. I ask you, how did he do that without his throw? How did he hit is so long being so square when he was so old?

I watched the PEaceriver tape with MIke Austin and Mike Dunaway several years back...the one thing that lingers with me from that tape was Austin chiding Dunaway for not having both arms straight at impact when demonstrating the throw. When clearly in slow mo. his arms NEVER were straight at impact. He wasn't saying "it feels like" he was demanding that it WAS. Does his swing have merit...without a doubt, but it's no more the be all or end all than 90% of whatever else is available out there. Can you throw the club from the top... sure Nicklaus.. "felt" a throw to a degree... will pivot throw ...absolutely. But a focus on a throw for a majority of golfers is going to be a death move. Oh well back to my cave... I'm out of this one.

 

[mandrin]

The weird and fascinating thing about golf is that Puttmad and Brian are both looking for a swing that has almost exactly the same "look" and "effect" yet both explain it in differing ways...

I understand Brian's theory more than Puttmad ( MA -style) because at least with TGM / Manzellish language ... you set out to achieve what you really achieve... "real IS real".... but in Mike Austin terms... you might be moving the real muscles but to teach everyone the "feel" of throwing from the top... even when you never DO throw it .... well that feel style teaching is limited.... Mike Austin never actually did throw it from the top.... he retained accumulator lag and probably lag pressure like the best of them ... what he felt was individual and not basis for teaching the globe...

Teach mechanics ( whatever way people need to feel it) and let their individual feels allow them to repeat it...

golfbulldog,

Your post is a must read for many as it mentions eloquently the reason for the persisting rather fascinating confusion in golf, i.e., mixing cause and effect, feel and real.

George Hibbard refers, with reason, to “invisible exertions”. Percy Boomer was probably the first important golf instructor fascinated with the feel aspect of teaching golf.

Being able to translate mechanics into images/feelings appropriate for each individual student - a hallmark of a truly geat golf instructor.

 

[golfbulldog]

Mike Austin never actually did throw it from the top.... he retained accumulator lag and probably lag pressure like the best of them ... what he felt was individual and not basis for teaching the globe...
QUOTE]
this statement comes across as absolute knowledge. have you studied mike austin? I dont mean look at his swing but rather study what he had to say. people look at his swing and see the lag and they they think that is the end of the story. Mike put people on machines to test muscular activity during the golf swing, many many years ago. He did the same thing as the scientists here are doing, he studied it scinetifically. I have said on here a few times, there is an Authorized instructor that some people on this board know. He did the MA method and the TGM way, Brian, give him a call and talk about the MA throw, there is nothing to loose.

In mikes later years, upper 70's, he still hit a 1 iron 280 carry, but he had his hips less then 15* open at impact, rather they look to be square and his shoulders are between square and 5* open, yet he still hit that 280 yard one iron. I ask you, how did he do that without his throw? How did he hit is so long being so square when he was so old?

Hi Shootin,

Studied... well I am grateful to you and puttmad for making me go look at MA forum website and read alot there...had a go myself and can not say it worked for me... will i give it a go in future ...probably....

But the description that Puttmad describes very clearly is not actually performed IN ISOLATION... it has a massive pivot move associated with it that he ( and his followers ) do not stress a s much...

The conscious application of his throw does not automatically cause the pivot to react.... it might just do it if you have an experienced player with good pivot already but who has never really thought about the location and action of the hands in the downswing ("downswing blackout"... i love that term... i had it for 24.5 years and only know am i starting to give my brain input as to hand location in downswing... in drills and real time)

The only conceivable way I can think that it works is that the intention to move the hands during downswing in this manner allows them to be coordinated with pivot for late release... it must be about prorio reception... letting the brain know where he hands are in space... a learnt response which the cerebellum can perform with feedback loops built in to modify fiture programs....ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE... no!! just theory ... I am really glad you guys have introduced his swing to me... he does not get much interest in UK... he was great athlete... great swing!

 

[puttmad]

Guys, some clarification, this will be my last mention on this subject….

Firstly, I find it hard to believe that you really think Mike was mistaken in his assessment of “feel and real”…I have to believe you are all much more intelligent than that…

Mike must have learned “the throw” just after the FIRST World War…
Do you seriously mean to say that after 80+ odd years of research and teaching (he was in the list of top 50 teaching pros in the early 90’s) that he could possibly be mistaken about what he was actually doing as opposed to what he was feeling during his golf swing?… Mike had four degrees. I don’t think he lacking in accurate perceptions and descriptions…

TBH you guys are way short of information and until you are able to see a copy of the Austinology dvds or the GIMI tapes, you really have no sound basis on which to make your decisions or conclusions….The Peaceriver video doesn’t even scratch the surface….
The Peaceriver reference to straightening your arm at impact was Mike’s way of telling Dunaway that he was cocking-up the slow-mo downswing release point.. Mike always stated (as everyone does) that the right arm is straight AFTER impact….

The throw is real. Of course it will also be a feeling as well as a physical movement…

Mcflog

Ref: “But a focus on a throw for a majority of golfers is going to be a death move..”
Initially, it would seem that way, but LIKE EVERYTING ELSE to do with learning a new move during the swing (or any other game or sport for that matter), after a couple of weeks of conscious effort, you do it without thinking, therefore NO FOCUS is needed….

GBD

Ref: “But the description that Puttmad describes very clearly is not actually performed IN ISOLATION... it has a massive pivot move associated with it that he ( and his followers ) do not stress a s much...”

You must have missed my post where I stated that the throw is combined with the pivot (may have been in my PM)….the faster you throw , the faster you need to pivot…

The throw I explained in isolation, simply because at first it is hard to grasp the concept if you have never seen it before….why confuse the issue initially by adding the complications of the pivot?…

REF the comments on Mike’s lag late into the downswing. I have explained this before and it is lengthy to repeat. Enough to say that Mike himself explains this “contradiction” very well on the dvds….

Listen guys, Mike’s concepts and TGM (as far as I am aware) are totally integratable…
I am pretty sure Mikes throw would only enhance your TGM results and lead to an even better experience from your golf game….

Last year I was coming off the range and was walking past a young player who i know to be a good ball striker (modern swing)....He said hello and I asked him how it was going. He said he was hitting the ball OK but seemed to be losing distance. I showed him the throw there and then (took 2 minutes flat) and with one practice swing he banged a ball long, right down the middle.. He just said "Wow, I've never felt that before)" I left him after a few shots with a big smile on his face...

The only way you will ever really know is obtaining more detailed information tape and finding out what Mike is really saying….

The journey is always better if you get off the main highway and go down a side road now and again. You never know what treasures you may find….

 

[shootin4par]

Hi Shootin,
But the description that Puttmad describes very clearly is not actually performed IN ISOLATION... it has a massive pivot move associated with it that he ( and his followers ) do not stress a s much...

The conscious application of his throw does not automatically cause the pivot to react....
he does not get much interest in UK... he was great athlete... great swing!

Bulldog,
if I have somehow come across as to say the throw causes the pivot, and puttmad would probably agree, then I have come across wrong. for him the move was a pivot/throw. If I said pivot and throw it may make it seem like that is the order but it is a simultaneous action. The pivot and throw happens at the same time. The swing must have the pivot he used to be able to support that throwing motion.

to me the most interesting parts about his swing is that his shoulders and hips dont have the X factor stuff, his hips do not outrace his shoulder, he is very square at impact with hips and shoulders, he has a very short follow through
his swing looks very fluid and smooth, the swing does not cause the wear and tear on the body,not bad on the back because the spine does not twist like a tiger swing, and to top it all off, he hits it far, very far. So how does he do so much with so little? Did he maximize the science.

as far as the peaceriver DVD, Dunnaway does too much talking and does not understand the sciences the way austin did, so a lot of austin info was left off,

 

[Brian Manzella]

Rules are rules for a reason.

Hello folks,

Sorry to take a break from the thesis of the last couple of pages, but I have to play moderator for a bit.

I have worked my whole adult life to learn what I know, and to be able to do it as well as I do. And, I have encountered many an obstacle in my way—along the way.

It is my natural inclination to swing at anything that tries to stop me, espeacially since I am a pretty good "hitter"—so to speak.

But, in this case, instead of swinging, I will just repeat the rules of this forum and what caused them to be created.

There is NO ADVERTISING FOR OTHER SITES, other dvd's etc., unless it is recommended by me or is not considered a distraction.

On this thread and a couple others, some members are forced to try to moderate these posts themselves, which is a shame, but is very appreciated.

This site is VERY popular, and it dwarphs many sites in vistors, hits, members, information and fun. It HAS ALWAYS and will always attract those who wish to use MY site for THEIR or other GAIN.

But it must stop in this instance.

When someone says that they haven't learned from this site, or won't say if they did, or continue to promote a teacher or site or whatever that has been given MORE THAN ITS FAIR share of "equal time," it is time to enforce the rules.

At the end of the day, this is a site about spreading my information and experience to golfers and teachers who really want to learn from me. I will always debate and often learn from others, but the learning has been done in this instance.

If you do want to learn, you can find me on the lesson tee.

 

[puttmad]

....

This site is VERY popular, and it dwarphs many sites in vistors, hits, members, information and fun. It HAS ALWAYS and will always attract those who wish to use MY site for THEIR or other GAIN.

I agree that this occurs on all forums Brian, but if it were true in my case I would have called mysef "impactputting" and would be starting loads of threads with, "your putting this.." and "your putting that".....
As you can see, I don't...

When someone says that they haven't learned from this site, or won't say if they did, or continue to promote a teacher or site or whatever that has been given MORE THAN ITS FAIR share of "equal time," it is time to enforce the rules.

Pleas note from my last post:
"Guys, some clarification, this will be my last mention on this subject…."

 

[Brian Manzella]

So....

Basically what you are saying is that you are going to continue the non-stop, relentless, Mikeaustinallthetime assult on this forum. And if I react by censorship or banning or anything drastic, you'll run back to wherever else it is you spend time, and be the 9,876 person to say, "That Manzella...."

 

[shootin4par]

seriously brian,
when you tell a man he is %100 wrong what do you expect out of him? And then there are times when in a discussion you pick and choose what to respond to to always be right. Sometimes saying "I dont know, let me look into that" is not always a bad thing

 

[mcflog]

seriously brian,
when you tell a man he is %100 wrong what do you expect out of him? And then there are times when in a discussion you pick and choose what to respond to to always be right. Sometimes saying "I dont know, let me look into that" is not always a bad thing

puttmadd said the "pivot will not throw" brian responded to that one statement saying it was "100% wrong" which is correct, there may be other ways as well to "throw", but the pivot CAN throw so that statement is 100% wrong. Brian gave a correct response to an incorrect observation. The original post did not say the pivot is not the only way the club can be thrown. It said the "pivot CAN'T throw". Brian "knows" the pivot CAN throw so what's he suppose to say?. If you list alternatives you'll get a discussion, if you speak in 100% certainties that something CAN or CAN'T...your gonna get 100% thrown back at you.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks a BUNCH Mc!

The fact that there are people like yourself in the world, who are fair minded, makes my little heart happy.

Geez Neil, Is it too much to fathom that I can teach better than Mike Austin?

As good as I can hit it at times, it is NOT TOO MUCH for me to fathom, that Mike Austin hit it BETTER than me and could FLY my best tee shot by 50.

 

[tourdeep]

TGM is great for precision and I really enjoy it. The "art" of it is allowing time for it to make sense, in particular, the feel of it. I took me awhile to get hands controlled pivot, but I think I got it, I think...!

To teach with them, which I do in another profession, comes to figuring out the best way to get to what the other person is saying and responding in a way that they understand.

There is a guy I know who is brilliant with TGM, but will choose to tell you to "catch the drop with the pivot" if that works better.

 

[vandal]

Well, I've been away from here for some time, but I do browse once in awhile and have two things to note:

1. Things never seem to change. I leave, comeback and leave, comeback and the same type of people are harassing Brian time and again. Then, when he calls them on it they get pissed. If you didn't notice the URL when you came in it reads www.brianmanzella.com See that? That's his. He's not funded by the Public Golf Broadcasting Forum. He pays the bills for this site. Brian is gracious enough to let others voice their ideas, but he is in no way obligated to any "free speech" ideals, despite the fact that he does allow an awful lot of debate/yelling. So, pick his brain and listen. Float ideas and ask questions. But please stop with the baiting and incessant attempts at logic, which are all plagued by inept reasoning.

2. I rarely get a chance to swing the clubs anymore, but a surprising thing happened when I got the chance this week. I thought only of where I needed my hands to go and then let my body do the rest. My hands did their job, but they can't do their job properly without the body/pivot. The hands control the pivot, the pivot supplies the umph. Try hitting someone just standing there and you may as well hit them with a wet noodle. Let you arms fly flee and use just your body to hit someone and watch as they laugh at you. Let your hands control the body and the body supply the force and watch the person fly. Do yourselves a favor and watch a boxer for just three minutes and you'll understand.

And please, don't dig up any outdated theories that are supported merely anecdotally to try and bolster your opinions.

Now, back to my rock.

 

[puttmad]

.....

Basically what you are saying is that you are going to continue the non-stop, relentless, Mikeaustinallthetime assult on this forum. And if I react by censorship or banning or anything drastic, you'll run back to wherever else it is you spend time, and be the 9,876 person to say, "That Manzella...."

Hang on a minute Brian,

Sorry but you have misread that one..
I didn't bring up MA in this thread, I believe I mentioned James Braid first...

And as for the end comment. that is not called for...If you care to go to the "other" forum, you will find I have NEVER EVER misaligned or criticised you in any way whatsoever...
You can get confirmation of that by asking other people who frequent that forum and they will confirm it....

What you and your supporters have failed to realize is that I do respect your knowledge and expertise, else why TF do you think I would be here...

But that doesn't change the fact that if I think something is wrong I will say so..
I still disagree about the pivot (ON ITS OWN) throwing anything, and I felt I proved it in my description, that is, IF ANYONE HAD ACTUALLY DONE THE EXERCISE for themselves instead of jumping down my throat...

And if any of you do actually get around to doing the exercise, please remember you cannot allow either the right elbow or the wrist cock to realease AT ALL, NOT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT...then see how fast your hands are "thrown"...

In fact you can do this exercise without a club. Just turn back and don't allow any folding of the right elbow.. Swing right back and then see how fast you can pivot your arms back around..
I think you will be surprised how slow it actually is...probably no more than even 10% of your clubhead speed..

As an opposite test swing back with just your arms without pivoting.
Then see how fast you can get your arms/hands to move....

Fin

 

[puttmad]

....

2. I rarely get a chance to swing the clubs anymore, but a surprising thing happened when I got the chance this week. I thought only of where I needed my hands to go and then let my body do the rest. My hands did their job, but they can't do their job properly without the body/pivot. The hands control the pivot, the pivot supplies the umph. Try hitting someone just standing there and you may as well hit them with a wet noodle. Let you arms fly flee and use just your body to hit someone and watch as they laugh at you. Let your hands control the body and the body supply the force and watch the person fly. Do yourselves a favor and watch a boxer for just three minutes and you'll understand.

How hard would a boxer hit if he never bent his elbows?.....

 

[danny_shank]

Puttmad Your exercise doesn't prove anything

Puttmad the throw out of the right arm triggers the release. What does pysically holding it back prove?

If you keep a relaxed left arm that swings from the shoulder the pivot can throw the left arm, this uncocks the right elbow which uncocks the left wrist. BINGO no concious effort at all.

 

[starretj]

Your absolutely right Puttmad, you can hold back, with effort, the throw out motion of the pivot, but it takes muscular effort to keep it from happening. Since it takes muscular effort to resist this tendency, that means that unless you resist physically the club will get thrown by the pivot. Ask Mandrin if science backs this up.

Jim S.

 

[Leek]

Why would you try and "hold" anything?

Jim- I'm sorry if this is off topic. It seems that in order to maintain the proper angles at and through impact, I need to feel like I'm holding my right elbow angle and then both of my wrists in the proper angle. Is this a bad thing?

 

[puttmad]

....

Your absolutely right Puttmad, you can hold back, with effort, the throw out motion of the pivot, but it takes muscular effort to keep it from happening. Since it takes muscular effort to resist this tendency, that means that unless you resist physically the club will get thrown by the pivot. Ask Mandrin if science backs this up.

Jim S.

Thank you...

That is all I have been trying to say all through this thread...The pivot cannot "throw" anything unless the right elbow allows it.....

So to come to a logical conclusion, what is it that REALLY controls the throwing of the club, the pivot or the right arm?.....

 

[puttmad]

....

Puttmad the throw out of the right arm triggers the release. What does pysically holding it back prove?

It is just an exercise Danny...to try and illustrate how much/little clubhead momentum the pivot actually provides...that's all.

If you keep a relaxed left arm that swings from the shoulder the pivot can throw the left arm, this uncocks the right elbow which uncocks the left wrist. BINGO no concious effort at all.

That's a given.... apart from.........