Hand Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands

[JeffM]

Bobby Clampett takes a similar position to Bender in his book "The Impact Zone" - the hips must continue to rotate fast just prior to impact. Clampett discusses this issue on page 108 and 109 of his book. Clampett states that maximum clubhead acceleration occurs PRIOR to impact, and that a good golfer can drive the point of eventual deceleration closer to the impact position if one combines a good pivot with good dynamics. Clampett quotes Hogan stating: "You cannot turn your hips fast enough through impact".

In the double pendulum swing action model, one imagines the central torque generator (thighs, torso) generating torque at the central hinge point at the START of the downswing, and this sets the downswing into motion according to the principles of the double swing action model. However, I think that the full golf swing is much more complicated and I believe that good golfers continue to generate central torque throughout the downswing and this applies constant (unrelenting) thrust on the hands throughout the downswing. Conceptually, I envison this CONSTANT thrust as part of the downswing pivot movement, which doesn't end when the hands reach the delivery position. I believe that the torso must continue to drive forward, so that the hands move constantly forward throughout the downswing (the right forearm extension that occurs after the hands reach the delivery position can be thought of as part of the downswing pivot action in this swing action model) - even while the right wrist unhinges in the pre-impact phase of the downswing.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

.....

When the body starts to rotate halfway in the downswing the component of motion in a horizontal plane experiences a sudden shortening of its effective swing radius. Increased peripheral speed results.

M,

This needs clarification I think:
"When the body starts to rotate halfway in the downswing"

??? So what is the body doing in the first half of the downswing, which to me is from the top to hands just below wast level. Is it not rotating?

.

"

 

[puttmad]

...

In general, any sudden changes of direction motion is worthwhile looking into. For instance purposely allowing a bit of slack in the lead arm to be able to initially move deftly away from the target leads to a sudden change of direction. This specific move is mentioned in some golf instruction books as for instance in “Such a Little Secret”.

Does this mean deliberately moving the hands directy away from the target at the top?
If so, I tried that one years ago and it leads to a very shallow attack on the ball and all the energy seems to be dissipated far too much before impact...
It also seems to lead to difficulty with correct weight shift, as the natural tendency is for the body to adjust its weight distibution to the action in process, therefore if you push you hands back (or straighten your left arm which has the same effect) your weight tends to stay on your right side longer (too long)...

 

[mandrin]

M,

This needs clarification I think:
"When the body starts to rotate halfway in the downswing"

??? So what is the body doing in the first half of the downswing, which to me is from the top to hands just below wast level. Is it not rotating?

.

"

puttmad,

Initially there is more sliding of lower body, i.e., a rotation about a horizontal axis. Once completed the axis of rotation shifts from horizontal to vertical.

 

[mandrin]

Does this mean deliberately moving the hands directy away from the target at the top?
If so, I tried that one years ago and it leads to a very shallow attack on the ball and all the energy seems to be dissipated far too much before impact...
It also seems to lead to difficulty with correct weight shift, as the natural tendency is for the body to adjust its weight distibution to the action in process, therefore if you push you hands back (or straighten your left arm which has the same effect) your weight tends to stay on your right side longer (too long)...

This is in the feel department where each and everyone is his own master. Even if only an intention it helps learning coming down properly during that small crucial moment of transition, a bit more back and down instead of immediately dashing for the ball.

 

[shootin4par]

the center of gravity needs to slide/shift to the left to establish the left leg as a pivot point, puttmad you should know that
"To get a feel for other approaches one has to appreciate that the large mass of the body when suddenly put into motion very quickly can gather relatively a lot of kinetic energy, even if the acceleration lasts only for a short time"

mandrin, so what I get from you is if you start the downswing abrubtly/quickly, you can then coast from there. so if you shift real hard left you dont have to worry so much about firing through. And since the hands/arms can play an active role in the swing then do you beleive you can do the shift rapidly so then you could do the hand action the same as well so it would be shift and throw, and by halfway down no more asistance except for gravity.

"Ideal swing"
science has to have a swing they deam most effecient. who would that be?

 

[puttmad]

...

the center of gravity needs to slide/shift to the left to establish the left leg as a pivot point, puttmad you should know that

Oh, I know that. Just trying to clarify the "rotations."

So where does the shift end and the rotation begin?...

In my own case, at the top my hips are nearly 45* closed. When I lift my right heel and "shift," although the left hip shifts left, at the same time the right hip is coming round, so at impact I am slightly open hipped..

That means my hips have rotated (turned) about 45*..
So where did the shift finish and the rotation begin?....if you see what I mean...

 

[shootin4par]

Oh, I know that. Just trying to clarify the "rotations."

So where does the shift end and the rotation begin?...

In my own case, at the top my hips are nearly 45* closed. When I lift my right heel and "shift," although the left hip shifts left, at the same time the right hip is coming round, so at impact I am slightly open hipped..

That means my hips have rotated (turned) about 45*..
So where did the shift finish and the rotation begin?....if you see what I mean...

while the shift happened the right hip area that was tense, relaxed and therefore unrotated the right hip. then when you get to the left the right hip fires around. In the swing we are talking about you want square hips

 

[mandrin]

the center of gravity needs to slide/shift to the left to establish the left leg as a pivot point, puttmad you should know that
"To get a feel for other approaches one has to appreciate that the large mass of the body when suddenly put into motion very quickly can gather relatively a lot of kinetic energy, even if the acceleration lasts only for a short time"

mandrin, so what I get from you is if you start the downswing abrubtly/quickly, you can then coast from there. so if you shift real hard left you dont have to worry so much about firing through. And since the hands/arms can play an active role in the swing then do you beleive you can do the shift rapidly so then you could do the hand action the same as well so it would be shift and throw, and by halfway down no more asistance except for gravity.

"Ideal swing"
science has to have a swing they deam most effecient. who would that be?

shootin4par,

Your questions put me more and more onto Brian’s turf and that of his staff. More appropriate to ask them your questions about the final truth regarding the various types of golf swings. All I am suggesting is to experiment for yourself, as I do, but am not some sort of scientific golf oracle.

Feel really springy in your legs ready to jump into action. Wind up dynamically quite tightly in the back swing. Just no slack anywhere. At maximum windup, for a split second, feel making a aggressive a vertical motion downwards, almost feeling it to be over before it even starts, a sweet paradox. A real aggressive impulsive motion. Just experience the large forces and torques this sets up throughout.

An advantage of early impulsive swinging is that a golfer can more readily swing like a ‘machine’, as the inertial forces/torques being set up quickly are dominating the down swing. There is no time to consciously do anything else than just hang on. One tiny aggressive motion and the swing is over before you can do anything about it.

This is not my swing, neither suggesting that it is an optimum swing, just something to experiment, to fool around with, for those so inclined. Naturally, it is not for those who are new to the game but more for those who have already into their neurons nicely etched out the various actions of a descent golf swing.

I dearly hope there is not and never will be one ‘scientific’ optimum golf swing. However a golfer letting as much as possible the inertial forces/torques control his swing will perhaps more readily obtain a repeatable swing, more machine like. Swings more based on feel are not having such advantage, feel changing rather quickly.

Human beings are such a beautiful complex blessed mix of feelings and emotions that it will be foremost these aspects which have the main potential to improve one’s performance, being under the gun when it really counts.

 

[KOC]

EDUCATED HANDS and PIVOT CONTROL GOLF STROKE?

Sorry to take part in this topic as I really want to express something as I really like THE GOLFING MACHINE.

In the real beginner to mid-handicapper’s world, “use your body to hit the ball is really imprint in their brains. In Hong Kong, don’t know the condition in other golf advanced countries myself, I have never seen a hacker stand still quietly just using his hands and arms to hit the golf ball at range. They sway, bob, super turn, body outraces anything and lost balance through out the stroke.

Though I have never had a lesson from local Pro, all of my buddies were told not to use their hands to hit the ball. Body, leg, knee, hip turn, shoulder turn…you name it, just no hands…

Yes, I like to store all video from TGC academy live shows, from 2000 to 2007, I nearly got them all. Of course, I brought many other pop DVDs out in the market and learnt golf by watching and practicing.

My found out of TGM is great to me. I learnt a lot from Brian’s video and others. Yet, “the stationary head” vs “trun around the spine”; which control which; STT vs RFT; led me feel I was back to the TGC and my “video store” contrary(???) to each others era.

OK, let me review what I personally got and learnt from TGM instructors (Statement first, no bias!)

Brian- Pivot Powered Hand control pivot and lately left arm up and a turn, of course there are so many great stuffs
Ben Doyle – Push the shopping cart by body, not by hands...hands are Australia sheep dogs, they need to go to school.
Gregg – let our body to do all the work, move the arm least the best
Bobby Shaffer - used and repeated the term “Hands control pivot” to explain why Ben Hogan wrote so much in his book regarding hands as well as sense in the hands in front of Steve and Ben Doyle during a course in Australia.
Michael Jacobs – Body core to take the club back with right elbow throw up
Paul Hart – Right forearm pick up and down, drive loading
Peter Coker – His Push system
The other side – needless to say, just the other sides…
Is that wonderful? Yes, it is! But I must say those guys are Good!
But I am confused again….wait a minute, I suddenly came up with two tests in my mind:

1. A special belt attached with a stable fixed golf club putting on any body to hit a golf ball on the ground…umh…quite difficult to hit but I think I can do that
2. I was being lifted up by a machine with wire so that I don’t have my legs on the ground as support, and just use our hands to hit a golf ball on a platform raised in the air…umh…my body would still move when I hit the ball with hands…look funny too

But what will be the results? Poor result I guess.

So what? IMHO, they are all in the book. Zone 1-3, pressure points; power accumulator; body pivot; educated hands (hands are not educated until they can control pivot…) I just don’t know….TGM A.I. must know…

How about EDUCATED HANDS and PIVOT CONTROL GOLF STROKE?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great Post Mandrin.

This thread is ready for bed.

 

[shootin4par]

mandrin, is there a scientific optimum way to walk or breathe?

 

[mandrin]

mandrin, is there a scientific optimum way to walk or breathe?

shootin4par,

Is there a scientific optimum way to post on the subject of a scientifc optimum way to walk or breathe?

 

[shootin4par]

mandrin, my point
we walk heal toe heal toe, scientifically this is optimum, dont agree just walk toe heal toe heal to find out. or take steps walking on the outside of the foot and see how effecient that is.
breathing
we breath in oxygen and it turns into carbon dioxide. so when we breathe out we must breathe out ALL of the carbon dioxide or we will actually poinsen our lungs, not to the point we die but to the point we are not being effecient and optimizing our breath. also, in order to maximize effeciency of the lungs we must breath into the whole lungs, lower, middle, upper, front, back, and side. when we do not we again rob ourselves of making our life easier. A large majority of people in our socioty do chest breathing and their postures are such as that they are not able to fully expand the lungs, slumped shoulders blocks a lot of oxygen.

people who have panick attacks what do they do? They try to take in a big breath, and then that does not help, why? because they need to focus on exhaling the previous breath to make way for the new air and not have any of the old carbon dioxide/poisen left in there.

my point? the body has laws on the effecient motions it makes, by breathing as close as we can in relation to effeciency we help our brain and other bodily functions and reduce tenstions, stress, and other taxing things on the body. in walking, we walk toe heal and not too much on the outside or too much on the inside, if we are far away from that we will not do it effeciently, therefore not maximizing the laws of human motion.


Just as science has laws so does the human body. what is the most effecient way to swing the club? One that utilizes things like gravity, centrifigal force, motion, pendulum (and all those scientific things you know way better then I) and adheres to the laws of motion of the human body. I am trying to understand your stuff on science and also learn about the body as well, that way I can combine the two as one in harmony

 

[mandrin]

mandrin, my point
we walk heal toe heal toe, scientifically this is optimum, dont agree just walk toe heal toe heal to find out. or take steps walking on the outside of the foot and see how effecient that is.
breathing
we breath in oxygen and it turns into carbon dioxide. so when we breathe out we must breathe out ALL of the carbon dioxide or we will actually poinsen our lungs, not to the point we die but to the point we are not being effecient and optimizing our breath. also, in order to maximize effeciency of the lungs we must breath into the whole lungs, lower, middle, upper, front, back, and side. when we do not we again rob ourselves of making our life easier. A large majority of people in our socioty do chest breathing and their postures are such as that they are not able to fully expand the lungs, slumped shoulders blocks a lot of oxygen.

people who have panick attacks what do they do? They try to take in a big breath, and then that does not help, why? because they need to focus on exhaling the previous breath to make way for the new air and not have any of the old carbon dioxide/poisen left in there.

my point? the body has laws on the effecient motions it makes, by breathing as close as we can in relation to effeciency we help our brain and other bodily functions and reduce tenstions, stress, and other taxing things on the body. in walking, we walk toe heal and not too much on the outside or too much on the inside, if we are far away from that we will not do it effeciently, therefore not maximizing the laws of human motion.


Just as science has laws so does the human body. what is the most effecient way to swing the club? One that utilizes things like gravity, centrifigal force, motion, pendulum (and all those scientific things you know way better then I) and adheres to the laws of motion of the human body. I am trying to understand your stuff on science and also learn about the body as well, that way I can combine the two as one in harmony

shootin4par,

To be able to define optimum for any activity pre supposes that all avenues are reasonably known. In the absence of such knowledge it becomes more educated guessing or even more straight forward using common sense. General rules apply yet the golf swing is also a matter of an ensemble of small details. Expecting to find in a few lines of a post the optimum scientific way to execute a golf swing is being rather optimistic to say the least.

Juts an anecdote to illustrate. Scientifically, lagging & recoil loading should normally lead to larger clubhead velocities. However, just recently fooling around with an extended pause at the top I got actually more clubhead velocity than using recoil loading. A golfer is really a very complex mix of physics and mental elements, not easily harnessed with a few quick universal rules, true for each and every golfer.

If you read in between the lines of Brian’s posts you will notice that he stresses more and more the numerous variations in student’s golf swings and the large array of possibly ways, even apparently contradicting, to cope with their problems. This, I am sure, is for many somewhat confusing since people love to find one simple coherent message. Golf however is the favorite place where mister paradox feels very much at home.

Science for a large part is based on experiments. Even the famous basic laws of classical Newtonian dynamics can not be defined and derived by logic alone. Ultimately they depend on a wide range of experience and a common acceptance of such experimental evidence to remain true in the future. Newton’s equations are an extremely compact statement of past experience of the behavior of a wide range of mechanical systems.

Hence, in a nutshell, a truly scientific approach to learning to swing a golf club is to the gather appropriate information, in various fields, and than to continuously experiment to find out what works for you, as it is in part highly individual. There is no easy answer, just hard work and patience. The real fun is not to arrive but rather the simple joy of travelling itself.

 

[shootin4par]

Mandrin, with all due respect,
you mean to tell me science can not make up a model of levers, joints, hinges, etc.. and add in things like torque. weight shift, right arm pushing and turning, left wrist uncocking and left forearm turning, centrifigul force, gravity, etc... and then from there find what it deems the ideal swing with all the variables involved????? Then from the ideal swing it could find the golfers who are the closest to their ideal? We can go to the moon but not figure out the golf swing? But then again I know the answer, science thinks it can make miracle cures for the human race, like prescription drugs that have nasty side effects.

Yes golf is a journey, and as all journeys are concerned, I would think he who knows his own body the best would be well ahead on the path. Hogan is a great example, what was he? A fitness instructor, who had one of what is considered greatest swings of all time

When I learned about breathing and how I was doing it wrong I did not change in a day and the change is not complete either, the journey still continues. but because I know how that, my previous way of unnatural breathing, does not benefit the body at least I have a starting point for my journey, rather then being left with he question of where to start

In the ideal golf swing how do we shift our weight? by shifting our center of gravity, at least now I am understanding the starting point on the golf swing as well

 

[puttmad]

....

But then again I know the answer, science thinks it can make miracle cures for the human race, like prescription drugs that have nasty side effects.

Science may want to find cures, but the drug companies that fund their research don't...
There is no money to be made curing people, all the money is in selling them ongoing "treatments" for the rest of their lives (figure the math)...

Bit like a lot of golf instruction....

 

[johngolf33]

Do you think it is possible to sustain the lag longer in the downswing by increasing the speed of the Pivot (hips and shoulders) on the downswing?

 

[puttmad]

...

Do you think it is possible to sustain the lag longer in the downswing by increasing the speed of the Pivot (hips and shoulders) on the downswing?

John, the lag is maintained by retaining the left hand wrist lever joint in a cocked position (radially flexed), which in turn is governed by the right wrist lever joint, or to put it more precisely, the pronation of the right wrist/forearm relative to the right upper arm bone....
Full release of the lag, after relaxing all the levers... is completed by the right elbow extending,

If the pivot can do all of the above, then the answer to your question is yes...

 

[johngolf33]

If the Hip-Slide Axis Tilt does not happen quick enough to make space for the Power Package to deliver the club on plane then "overtaking" can cause the loss of the Flat Left Wrist and Bent Right Wrist. I was just wondering if a faster pivot or a more dramatic Axis Tilt would enhance sustaining the lag.