Ditto. I use the TGM pattern known as the left wrist throw from the top on the Turned Shoulder Plane and wonder if the handle dragging experts consider that handle dragging. Also, can handle dragging be IDed by just looking at the hands/handle through impact or do they have to ask the player what he's feeling?
Handle dragging "just when I thought I was out they drag me back in"
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Ditto. I use the TGM pattern known as the left wrist throw from the top on the Turned Shoulder Plane and wonder if the handle dragging experts consider that handle dragging. Also, can handle dragging be IDed by just looking at the hands/handle through impact or do they have to ask the player what he's feeling?
Shot Limit
New
Do you see the distance between the first two dots in each of these photos? In these pics, I would contend that handle dragging is the motion of the coupling point from the first dot (assuming low point) to the second dot. You can clearly see the difference between the left and right photos. The video of Jordan looks way more like the first photo to me and I dont really think it matters what his wrist looks like. You can drag a cupped wrist too IMO. Either way, Jordan is absolutly going normal.
Shot Limit
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New site is very nice btw.
Yeah, intent should be the determining factor. Could look like handle dragging but trying to roll the hell out of the club/hands/wrist if other things are happening.
Todd Dugan
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Its weird how so many people are very concerned about handle dragging, yet there is no accepted consensus of what is actually is. This happens at another forum also, with another popular internet instructor harshly warning against it. I'm not sure who coined the term, but it may have been Brian. Time for a clear definition so we know what we're talking about here. Brian has mentioned a motion measurement. Which one? Handle speed?
Virtuoso
New
Todd, what forum and what instructor? And are you also Professor D?
Todd Dugan
New
The other guy calls it "handle pulling". And he has no affiliation with Brian that I know of. But I'm sure plenty of people have assumed, right or wrong, that "handle pulling" and "handle dragging" are the same thing. Which is why, to clear any confusion, I'd like to see Brian define the term he uses. What is it and how is it identified and/or measured? How does it adversely effect the collision?
"Handle dragging" is a term Brian coined to yank TGMers chains, so never required a precise definition.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Bull$#!+
I'be defined it 100 different ways.
The easiest way to measure it in Jacobs 3D is grip speed vs. alpha (in plane) rotation down around impact.
I'be defined it 100 different ways.
The easiest way to measure it in Jacobs 3D is grip speed vs. alpha (in plane) rotation down around impact.
Look, you're jumping into measuring something you have not yet defined, and if it requires 100 different attempts, none of them are precise. Here it is - handle dragging is accelerating the handle through impact with the left arm moving away from the torso past impact, in order to get a forward leaning shaft at impact.
Todd Dugan
New
No, I don't think that's it. It involves the rate of rotation of the lower pendulum, relative to the rate of rotation of the upper pendulum, in the impact zone. So the polar opposite of handle dragging would be if the hands took up a stationary position and the clubhead rotated 180 degrees around that axis. The most extreme handle dragging would be if the hands and clubhead moved together, like a single pendulum. That's how I understand it, anyway. I wasn't trying to be combative earlier. I was just asking if we could get a definition.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Look....
You have a certain SPEED of the mid point of the grip.
You have a certain SPEED of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top.
On the abject THROWAWAY side, you have very little speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively high speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.
On the MASSIVE HANDLE-DRAGGING side, you have a relatively high speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.
That's it.
You have a certain SPEED of the mid point of the grip.
You have a certain SPEED of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top.
On the abject THROWAWAY side, you have very little speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively high speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.
On the MASSIVE HANDLE-DRAGGING side, you have a relatively high speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.
That's it.
Ok. So intent (like just pivoting) and rate of closure (like having more accum 3) are irrelevant?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Intent?
I have NEVER EVER SAID ANYTHING about "intent."
Interestingly, MEASURED ON ENSO, some PGA TOUR PROS who lean toward the handle-dragging side of my brilliant scale. have A HIGHER RATE OF CLOSURE!
I have NEVER EVER SAID ANYTHING about "intent."
Interestingly, MEASURED ON ENSO, some PGA TOUR PROS who lean toward the handle-dragging side of my brilliant scale
. have A HIGHER RATE OF CLOSURE!So it sounds like, basically, handle dragging is not how much the handle is or isn't leading; you can handle drag with a fairly neutral shaft, or you can lean the crap out of it with no handle dragging.
The question then becomes, is there a threshold that one crosses that differentiates the handle-dragger from the not-a-handle-dragger? Or is it more subtle like "You're dragging a little too much, let the club head go a little more"?
That's not it. You gave a semi-definition of "massive handle dragging", with the "relatively" high/low stuff. So, if you could say at EXACTLY what relative rates someone is handle dragging or not, you'd have it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Listen pal....you wanted a CUT AND DRY number.
We have it.
Stop the whining.
We have it.
Stop the whining.
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