Hinge Action, Rate of Closure, and what you SHOULD do with the clubface (p9 pic)

[brianid]

Ok....

Have you ever look ed some good 6DoF 3d?

You hate right wrist straightening?

YOU CAN'T PLAY A LICK WITHOUT IT.

Period.



#3 is NOT like gamma.

It is NOT gamma.

Gamma is a TWIST, #3 is NOT twist.

TWIST is OMITTED in TGM.

Ans so is right wrist straightening.


oy vey

Brian,

Just to be clear. Are you saying that recent researches that you believe say that the best release in terms of power is the flipping release with an INTENTIONAL straightening of R wrist, and that in terms of accuracy this same release is best too because it provides more accuracy due to the gear effect or fade spin imparted on the ball due to the faster face closure?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Intentional ? Straightening of the rear wrist/flexing of the lead wrist is the most natural subconscious-guided movement in this area of human body because it goes alongside with physics. That's how hinges work -- they do not hold anything because it is an antithesis of their existence, so to speak.
I would say that every other possible actions in the wrist area would demand conscious thoughts.

Cheers

 

[brianid]

Intentional ? Straightening of the rear wrist/flexing of the lead wrist is the most natural subconscious-guided movement in this area of human body because it goes alongside with physics. That's how hinges work -- they do not hold anything because it is an antithesis of their existence, so to speak.
I would say that every other possible actions in the wrist area would demand conscious thoughts.

Cheers

So you agree with BM on this one? But you don't agree with him on the fade spin effect of a faster closing clubface? It's related Darius. Simple explanation why it has a gear fade effect is because the clubhead also sorta closes or goes leftwards due to the "flipping" L wrist. Only way to draw it with that is to stall the pivot and/or hands.

Did I understand BM and you correctly?

 

[brianid]

By the way, Schlee wants a bended R wrist INTENT. And it seems like his teacher, Ben Hogan, has a bended R wrist too...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yup, I know R wrist straightening always happens. But intentionally? I'm just saying I hate to intentionally straighten #5.

Good for you.

I will give over a hundred lessons in the next four days in "The City" and there is a chance that I never have to tell anyone to "straighten the right worst on purpose." But, there have been MANY MANY times in the past few weeks that I had to in lessons.

The factor is simple:

Was someone TOLD not to straighten it?

But don't you think #1 is better while keeping the R wrist bent? This way I believe #4 can continue, #3 can work 100% without power leakage, with #1 adding a LOT of power.

But I understand your point on #5 and gamma. Works side by side? You think gamma can be non-automatic? You think gamma can be non-auto AT THE SAME TIME #5 being non-auto as well? How?

I am going to repost your whole question without all the silly TGM designations.

But don't you think straightening the right arm is better while keeping the right wrist bent? This way I believe you can continue to left the left arm swing, rolling the left arm club unit, while the right arm straightening is adding a LOT of power.

But I understand your point on straightening the right wrist and gamma. Works side by side? You think gamma can be non-automatic? You think gamma can be non-auto AT THE SAME TIME straightening the right wrist being non-auto as well? How?

You have so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Watch this video:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/34442274" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

 

[Dariusz J.]

So you agree with BM on this one? But you don't agree with him on the fade spin effect of a faster closing clubface? It's related Darius. Simple explanation why it has a gear fade effect is because the clubhead also sorta closes or goes leftwards due to the "flipping" L wrist. Only way to draw it with that is to stall the pivot and/or hands.

Did I understand BM and you correctly?

Why is the clubface to close faster ? E.g. a slap-hinge release type allows to maintain the squareness to the path, only loft is being added starting from the contact provided grip is correct.

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

Slap-Hinge.

Stall and Flip.

All these crappy names need to go.

EVERYONE ON THE TOUR HAS MASSIVE RIGHT WRIST ACCELERATION TO AND THROUGH IMPACT!!!!!!

And massive rotational deceleration of the body segments from the ground up.

 

[Dariusz J.]

All these crappy names need to go.

Agreed. There should be much more scientific nomenclature understandable clearly with or without Wikipedia.
It should concern also your unscientific vocabulary as well, Brian, since your forum is still full of crappy descriptions such as tumble or jackkniffing just to mention a few.

Cheers

 

[art]

Good for you.

I will give over a hundred lessons in the next four days in "The City" and there is a chance that I never have to tell anyone to "straighten the right worst on purpose." But, there have been MANY MANY times in the past few weeks that I had to in lessons.

The factor is simple:

Was someone TOLD not to straighten it?




I am going to repost your whole question without all the silly TGM designations.




You have so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Watch this video:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/34442274" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Dear Brian,

WOW, thanks for that video, and your annotations, arrows etc, and best of all for me (and hopefully for those that believe in the "keep it back" part of Bumpy back, keep it back), because, following the hip movement thru the downswing CLEARLY showed how the left hip rotated (angularly) much more than the right hip, frame by frame. This hip pattern RETAINS the lower body dynamic stability required during the build-up of kinetic energy and 'explosive down swing of the upper body, arms and golf club.

Also, your tangential markings from the top clearly coincide with the kinematic sequence peaks developing for the pelvis, torso and arms. From the end of these markings and into the next phase of hand involvement around the coupling point, and from Dr. Nesbitt's work and power studies, the power input from the body is decreasing, and the kinetic energy that has developed is 'roaring' into the golf club from the arms, and thru the wrists NOW requiring attention to the repositioning of the club face, as most of the energy required for maximizing club head speed has already been developed.

I have not done and work in this area BUT the next phase of the start and development of the 'parametric acceleration phase' could not have had a clearer demonstration. In fact as you noted, her feet came off the ground, and I want to emphasize this point for the majority of golfers.

Please, do not try to jump off the ground to develop those arrows along the shaft. What causes those arrows to develop in most cases is simply the movement of the left shoulder, UP, and for simplicity of explanation, UP THE PLANE DEVELOPED BY THE GOLF CLUB AT IMPACT.

So Brian, thanks for AGAIN posting another informative and clear demonstration of the characteristics needed for an efficient golf swing explained with scientific principles and always seeking 'golf truth'.

Hope to get a glimpse of you on TV at The Open this week end,

Best regards,
art

 

[dschultz6072]

So if you're not jumping for jumping's sake, what causes someone to lift off the ground like this? Art you're saying it's his left shoulder?

I asked this guy (one of my friends), who coincidentally hits the ball very hard with what looks like a small amount of effort, if he feels his feet lift off the ground or if he tries to and what causes it in his mind. He said it's just the force of the club pulling him off the ground. I told him it's something I noticed that people who really hit the ball hard all seem to have that upward force look to their swing through impact that sometimes lifts them off the ground. I asked him if he could hit it as hard if he kept his feet planted, and he tried to do it, Angel Cabrera style. He could do it, but it wasn't comfortable.

 

[art]

So if you're not jumping for jumping's sake, what causes someone to lift off the ground like this? Art you're saying it's his left shoulder?

I asked this guy (one of my friends), who coincidentally hits the ball very hard with what looks like a small amount of effort, if he feels his feet lift off the ground or if he tries to and what causes it in his mind. He said it's just the force of the club pulling him off the ground. I told him it's something I noticed that people who really hit the ball hard all seem to have that upward force look to their swing through impact that sometimes lifts them off the ground. I asked him if he could hit it as hard if he kept his feet planted, and he tried to do it, Angel Cabrera style. He could do it, but it wasn't comfortable.

Deardschultz6072,

NO, I did not mean to state or infer that the left shoulder is responsible for the feet going off the ground.

The reason some golfers feet leave the ground, or just significantly reduce their vertical foot forces after the impact with the ball, is that they are CONVERTING some of the rotary kinetic energy in the decelerating follow thru into 'potential energy' for an instant as their bodies center of gravity is elevated. The end result is a follow thru that is gentler on the lead side hip, knee ankle and foot, as the body slows down rotationally, and then from the elevation of the center of gravity, simply drops down at the end of the follow thru.

In the case of the video you provided, your friend 'jumps up' by straightening both legs during his explosive downswing BUT AFTER HE ALREADY HAS DEVELOPED THE PEAKS OF HIS KINEMATIC SEQUENCE AND THE ASSOCIATED ENERGY FOR MAX CLUB HEAD SPEED. His jumping IMO, seems to be associated with developing maximum 'parametric acceleration', as opposed to lead side deceleration protection..

The reason I suggest that the left shoulder go up the clubs swing plane (rather than going horizontal) is that the angular momentum vectors of the energy producing lead arm and shoulders are better aligned, enhancing the direct addition without angular losses.

In contrast, the left shoulder going horizontal while still delivering the club head to the ball for a center hit, creates losses in the transfer of energy due to the angle between the shoulder, lead arm and club angular momentum vectors.

Regards,
art

 

[brianid]

Why is the clubface to close faster ? E.g. a slap-hinge release type allows to maintain the squareness to the path, only loft is being added starting from the contact provided grip is correct.

Cheers

I meant the clubHEAD "closes" or goes inside earlier/faster, hence the fade spin. The clubFACE doesn't really close faster, its the clubHEAD. Hence the wrong conclusion on the faster closure rate resulting to fade spin. It should be: faster going inside rate resulting to fade spin...lol

What's actually closing is the whole clubhead in relation to the ball, due to the flipping/bending L wrist. The face, as you said, stays square to the path longer, hence the fade spin. In 8D video though, it sure looks like face is closing...lol

 

[brianid]

Good for you.

I will give over a hundred lessons in the next four days in "The City" and there is a chance that I never have to tell anyone to "straighten the right worst on purpose." But, there have been MANY MANY times in the past few weeks that I had to in lessons.

The factor is simple:

Was someone TOLD not to straighten it?




I am going to repost your whole question without all the silly TGM designations.




You have so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Watch this video:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/34442274" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

On your DS description and preference...hands dominated DS..hate it. Only for those who doesnt know how to use the BODY properly. Look at that jumping move...because the body and hips were not moved properly. Hate it. If she doesn't "jump"...OUCH...and I mean literally...OUCH...lol...those L hip tendons gonna hurt...

Excellent player though...

 

[brianid]

Deardschultz6072,

NO, I did not mean to state or infer that the left shoulder is responsible for the feet going off the ground.

The reason some golfers feet leave the ground, or just significantly reduce their vertical foot forces after the impact with the ball, is that they are CONVERTING some of the rotary kinetic energy in the decelerating follow thru into 'potential energy' for an instant as their bodies center of gravity is elevated. The end result is a follow thru that is gentler on the lead side hip, knee ankle and foot, as the body slows down rotationally, and then from the elevation of the center of gravity, simply drops down at the end of the follow thru.

In the case of the video you provided, your friend 'jumps up' by straightening both legs during his explosive downswing BUT AFTER HE ALREADY HAS DEVELOPED THE PEAKS OF HIS KINEMATIC SEQUENCE AND THE ASSOCIATED ENERGY FOR MAX CLUB HEAD SPEED. His jumping IMO, seems to be associated with developing maximum 'parametric acceleration', as opposed to lead side deceleration protection..

The reason I suggest that the left shoulder go up the clubs swing plane (rather than going horizontal) is that the angular momentum vectors of the energy producing lead arm and shoulders are better aligned, enhancing the direct addition without angular losses.

In contrast, the left shoulder going horizontal while still delivering the club head to the ball for a center hit, creates losses in the transfer of energy due to the angle between the shoulder, lead arm and club angular momentum vectors.

Regards,
art

That jumping..only ONE reason...cramps...lol

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Brianid"


You have yo get out of the tom-wrapper.

I didn't post the video because this girl has an "ideal" swing, I didn't do the video for that reason either.

She just more easily shows the three phases then anyone I've seen, Rory being close.


NOTE:

Everyone who can play a lick is doing the three phases. Not maybe optimally, but doing them as described.


Here is you take home:

a. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE twist/gamma in their swings. It is a ramp up from the top through impact. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.

b. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE right wrist straightening in their swings in the final phase of the downswing. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.


"Going normal" was NEVER described like it really is in anything on the shelf.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I meant the clubHEAD "closes" or goes inside earlier/faster, hence the fade spin. The clubFACE doesn't really close faster, its the clubHEAD. Hence the wrong conclusion on the faster closure rate resulting to fade spin. It should be: faster going inside rate resulting to fade spin...lol

What's actually closing is the whole clubhead in relation to the ball, due to the flipping/bending L wrist. The face, as you said, stays square to the path longer, hence the fade spin. In 8D video though, it sure looks like face is closing...lol

I cannot understand what you're implying to say, sorry. If I say that clubface stays square to the arc it means it stays neutral. Since the clubface is neutral/square the clubhead also is neutral/square because it is on an arc. I am not a D-plane expert to confirm or negate if this scenario brings a bit of fade or draw spin. Hogan said a perfect shot will always impart a minimal draw spin because it is inside to inside as the arc goes (swing center is inside the golfer-ball system). But it does not matter to me if he was right or wrong since the abbreviation is so small that negligible.
Perhaps you think more of slap-hinge/crossover hybrid that Brian seems to endorse as "going natural" but pure slap-hinge (a'la Wild Bill Mehlhorn) is perfectly neutral horizontally.

a. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE twist/gamma in their swings. It is a ramp up from the top through impact. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.

b. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE right wrist straightening in their swings in the final phase of the downswing. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.

Very well stated.

Cheers

 

[lia41985]

EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE right wrist straightening in their swings in the final phase of the downswing. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.

 

[brianid]

Tiger's R wrist is actually still bent at impact...it straightens because the L wrist rolls and starts to cup...

If a golfer's grip is L hand weak, with R hand weaker, straightening the R wrist will make his ball striking so inconsistent because he will be as if his R hand is trying to dump the clubhead to the ground vertically...

 

[wulsy]

Everyone who can play a lick is doing the three phases. Not maybe optimally, but doing them as described.


Here is you take home:

a. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE twist/gamma in their swings. It is a ramp up from the top through impact. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.

b. EVERYONE decent has MASSIVE right wrist straightening in their swings in the final phase of the downswing. Certainly there are differences in amount, but it is there as sure as the nose on my face. TGM omits it. Quite a few other "Scientific" systems do as well.


"Going normal" was NEVER described like it really is in anything on the shelf.

Brian,

1/ why do good ball strikers twist?

2/ what is the connection between the twist and the r. wrist straightening?

I used to hit the ball sheet hot with a big twist BUT WITHOUT straightening my r. wrist. What were my disadvantages at that time, and how do you think r. wrist straightening would have/has changed my ball flight/TM numbers?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Tiger's R wrist is actually still bent at impact...it straightens because the L wrist rolls and starts to cup...

If a golfer's grip is L hand weak, with R hand weaker, straightening the R wrist will make his ball striking so inconsistent because he will be as if his R hand is trying to dump the clubhead to the ground vertically...

You are swimming.

Ever look at 6DoF-3D??

Lost in the book.....

Brian,

1/ why do good ball strikers twist?

2/ what is the connection between the twist and the r. wrist straightening?

I used to hit the ball sheet hot with a big twist BUT WITHOUT straightening my r. wrist. What were my disadvantages at that time, and how do you think r. wrist straightening would have/has changed my ball flight/TM numbers?

They twist because they have to.

Almost no connection to the twist and the right worst straightening.