hitting against a firm left side?? (SUBJECT of a NEW! Manzella YouTube!)
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mandrin
New
Tom,
‘Hitting against a wall’, ‘hitting against a firm left side’ are excellent examples of intuitive knowledge re to an efficient swing, corresponding with an efficient kinetic link operation.
There is temporarily some slowing down, energy/momentum transfers to the clubhead just before low point, and than the process reverses and the arms, shoulders receive energy/momentum from the club and pick up speed.
I recall having seen once a video where there was quite distinctly discernable some kind of ‘jitter’ in the down swing showing clearly this very short duration slowing down of various body parts.
I was at the range today and one of the things I noticed was that I could use this idea to fade or draw the ball. A firm left side allowed me to slow down the body, allowing the club to close a bit more rapidly and hit a draw. Open the lead foot and the hips a bit and the club never catches up and you can hit a pretty consistent fade. Club just can't catch up..
Mandrin - you made this statement-: "There is temporarily some slowing down, energy/momentum transfers to the clubhead just before low point, and than the process reverses and the arms, shoulders receive energy/momentum from the club and pick up speed."
Do you have scientific/swing video evidence for your belief that the right shoulder temporarily slows down in the peri-impact phase of the golf swing and that it then receives "energy" from the club, which enables it to speed up again?
I have looked at countless swing videos of PGA tour golfers and I can see NO slowing of the right shoulder movement in the downswing and immmediate post-impact phase of the full golf swing. I can see SEVERE slowing of the right shoulder movement later in the followthrough when the "kinetic chain snaps tight".
Jeff.
Do you have scientific/swing video evidence for your belief that the right shoulder temporarily slows down in the peri-impact phase of the golf swing and that it then receives "energy" from the club, which enables it to speed up again?
I have looked at countless swing videos of PGA tour golfers and I can see NO slowing of the right shoulder movement in the downswing and immmediate post-impact phase of the full golf swing. I can see SEVERE slowing of the right shoulder movement later in the followthrough when the "kinetic chain snaps tight".
Jeff.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
So, boys, where does a model of hitting vs swinging or a seperation of longitudional and radial acceleration fit into the kinetic chain??????? Sounds like to me it replaces the traditional models
forgedbladesgolf
New
I have always fought a slide into impact which I think after watching this video, compounds itself into me throwing the "ball" away from my left hip into impact (right field). I think if I can get a firmer left side, my chances to throw my arm across my left hip and trace the plane line correctly will help me with distance and accuracy.
Prior to watching this video, I am still confused as to why my shoulders stop pivoting into impact and my hands take over (flip to right field) to square the club thus breaking the kinetic chain (my normal move)
Now I need to stop my hips and shoulders until the energy is transferred to my hands and arms at impact. I hope this will get me swing more left, something Brian wanted me to do in Chicago last year.
Prior to watching this video, I am still confused as to why my shoulders stop pivoting into impact and my hands take over (flip to right field) to square the club thus breaking the kinetic chain (my normal move)
Now I need to stop my hips and shoulders until the energy is transferred to my hands and arms at impact. I hope this will get me swing more left, something Brian wanted me to do in Chicago last year.
Mandrin said " There is temporarily some slowing down, energy/momentum transfers to the clubhead just before low point, and than the process reverses and the arms, shoulders receive energy/momentum from the club and pick up speed."
??? How does the momentum or energy get transfer to the clubhead just before lowpoint? I can understand if energy gets transfered to the ball. Similarly, I cannot understand how the shoulders receive any external energy or momentum from the club.
Actually, I do not expect any answer because I sincerely believe there cannot be any logical scientific explanation.
??? How does the momentum or energy get transfer to the clubhead just before lowpoint? I can understand if energy gets transfered to the ball. Similarly, I cannot understand how the shoulders receive any external energy or momentum from the club.
Actually, I do not expect any answer because I sincerely believe there cannot be any logical scientific explanation.
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....
Jeff,
This is not a scientific answer, but purely intuitive, from the feeling of my own swing..
I always get the feeling that the right shoulder slows appreciably approaching or at impact, when the left shoulder is reaching its high point during impact and the right arm starts to kick-in..
From there, because of the "whip-action" of the club thro the impact zone, which your pivot cannot keep up with, there is a sensation of the right side re-collecting itself and chasing the clubhead/shaft up and around to the finish..
I get the impression that the right shoulder changes direction during the swing...
DOWN from the top towards impact
ALONG the plane line in the impact zone, and then,
STRAIGHT UP to the finish..
Maybe it is during the transition from one direction to another that the speed changes occur...
Jeff,
This is not a scientific answer, but purely intuitive, from the feeling of my own swing..
I always get the feeling that the right shoulder slows appreciably approaching or at impact, when the left shoulder is reaching its high point during impact and the right arm starts to kick-in..
From there, because of the "whip-action" of the club thro the impact zone, which your pivot cannot keep up with, there is a sensation of the right side re-collecting itself and chasing the clubhead/shaft up and around to the finish..
I get the impression that the right shoulder changes direction during the swing...
DOWN from the top towards impact
ALONG the plane line in the impact zone, and then,
STRAIGHT UP to the finish..
Maybe it is during the transition from one direction to another that the speed changes occur...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Whoa Nellie....
EVERY 3D MACHINE AROUND, AND THERE ARE SEVERAL, HAVE MEASURED AND NOTED THE HALT OF THE SHOULDERS PRE-IMPACT!!!!!
Jeff and others,
I undersatnd that you don't get it. But...it is there.
Would you feel better if you saw a graph?
EVERY 3D MACHINE AROUND, AND THERE ARE SEVERAL, HAVE MEASURED AND NOTED THE HALT OF THE SHOULDERS PRE-IMPACT!!!!!
Jeff and others,
I undersatnd that you don't get it. But...it is there.
Would you feel better if you saw a graph?
Puttmad
You write-: "I always get the feeling that the right shoulder slows appreciably approaching or at impact, when the left shoulder is reaching its high point during impact and the right arm starts to kick-in.."
The problem that I have with your answer is that you are implying that the left shoulder reaches its high point PRIOR to impact, or at impact. That may apply to your swing. However, I think that for most pro golfers the left shoulder reaches its high point AFTER impact. I think that the shoulders are only slightly open (5-35 degrees open) at impact for many pro golfers and that the right shoulder hasn't even got to the point where it is going to move under the chin - and I can see no reason why the right shoulder should be slowing down PRIOR to impact if a golfer ACTTIVELY drives his right shoulder down the RSP line.
Here is a swing video of Tiger Woods swing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q&mode=related&search=
Note that his right shoulder hasn't even got to his chin by impact, and I can see no evidence that his right shoulder slows down before it passes underneath his chin.
Brian
I wouldn't feel better if I see a graph. I have this graph in one my own website papers, which seems to imply that the shoulders are slowing down PRIOR to impact.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/FofH-speed.jpg
I no longer know what this graph really implies. It may have something to do with some researcher's personal ideas regarding kinetic energy transfer, but I don't think that it really measures the speed of RIGHT shoulder movement. However, I am open to contrary opinions that provide factual evidentiary support that I can peruse.
Jeff.
You write-: "I always get the feeling that the right shoulder slows appreciably approaching or at impact, when the left shoulder is reaching its high point during impact and the right arm starts to kick-in.."
The problem that I have with your answer is that you are implying that the left shoulder reaches its high point PRIOR to impact, or at impact. That may apply to your swing. However, I think that for most pro golfers the left shoulder reaches its high point AFTER impact. I think that the shoulders are only slightly open (5-35 degrees open) at impact for many pro golfers and that the right shoulder hasn't even got to the point where it is going to move under the chin - and I can see no reason why the right shoulder should be slowing down PRIOR to impact if a golfer ACTTIVELY drives his right shoulder down the RSP line.
Here is a swing video of Tiger Woods swing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q&mode=related&search=
Note that his right shoulder hasn't even got to his chin by impact, and I can see no evidence that his right shoulder slows down before it passes underneath his chin.
Brian
I wouldn't feel better if I see a graph. I have this graph in one my own website papers, which seems to imply that the shoulders are slowing down PRIOR to impact.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/FofH-speed.jpg
I no longer know what this graph really implies. It may have something to do with some researcher's personal ideas regarding kinetic energy transfer, but I don't think that it really measures the speed of RIGHT shoulder movement. However, I am open to contrary opinions that provide factual evidentiary support that I can peruse.
Jeff.
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jeffy
Banned
Jeff Mann-
Yesterday, I posted some links to swing sequences of Davis Love that seemed to illustrate this point, but the post was removed (was it because the sequences were from another golf instruction site?). Anyhow, you know where to find them. In the face-on "long-iron" sequence, the hips and shoulders don't seem to move much at all in the last three frames, which are just before, during and after impact. The right shoulder "looks" like it might be moving more than the left shoulder, but I think that is really just the right bicep. Check it out; if you have some face-on sequences of Davis, why don't you post them here so we can all look at them?
Yesterday, I posted some links to swing sequences of Davis Love that seemed to illustrate this point, but the post was removed (was it because the sequences were from another golf instruction site?). Anyhow, you know where to find them. In the face-on "long-iron" sequence, the hips and shoulders don't seem to move much at all in the last three frames, which are just before, during and after impact. The right shoulder "looks" like it might be moving more than the left shoulder, but I think that is really just the right bicep. Check it out; if you have some face-on sequences of Davis, why don't you post them here so we can all look at them?
jeffy
Banned
Found some...
Found some DLIII sequences from an "impartial" site:
Just before impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14324
Impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14325
Just after impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14326
It looks to me like his shoulders and hips pretty much stay put in all three frames.
Found some DLIII sequences from an "impartial" site:
Just before impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14324
Impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14325
Just after impact:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14326
It looks to me like his shoulders and hips pretty much stay put in all three frames.
jeffy
Banned
In contrast...
Look how much Hogan rotates his body through impact compared to Davis:
Just before impact:
Hogan:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=1547
Davis:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14324
Just after impact:
Hogan:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=1549
Davis:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14326
Hands are in similar positions, but the bodies aren't: Hogan is rotating his hips and shoulders through impact, whipping both hands through without much crossover ("push" release); Davis has "braked" his body and is rotating the the right arm over the left through impact ("rotational" release). Two different but very effective ways to release the club and play golf.
Look how much Hogan rotates his body through impact compared to Davis:
Just before impact:
Hogan:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=1547
Davis:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14324
Just after impact:
Hogan:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=1549
Davis:
http://www.historicgolf.com/page_photo.cfm?photoid=14326
Hands are in similar positions, but the bodies aren't: Hogan is rotating his hips and shoulders through impact, whipping both hands through without much crossover ("push" release); Davis has "braked" his body and is rotating the the right arm over the left through impact ("rotational" release). Two different but very effective ways to release the club and play golf.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Jeffy
both styles tend to lead to different shot patterns as well....it's no coincidence that Davis plays a draw and Hogan a fade.
both styles tend to lead to different shot patterns as well....it's no coincidence that Davis plays a draw and Hogan a fade.
Gideon Ariel's Research...
This link is to a famous (at the time) article that Dr. Ariel did for a golf publication. It may be dated but I felt it was relevant to the discussion.
http://www.arielnet.com/media/article.aspx?publication=1015
Any opinions on it? It's one of my favorite articles from years ago.
This link is to a famous (at the time) article that Dr. Ariel did for a golf publication. It may be dated but I felt it was relevant to the discussion.
http://www.arielnet.com/media/article.aspx?publication=1015
Any opinions on it? It's one of my favorite articles from years ago.
mrodock
New
I really enjoyed it, makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
You may be right about the difference in their releases, but these may not be the best examples for comparison, based on differences in physique, swing, and club selection. It's hard to make an accurate comparison based on this set of photos.
Jeff,
Not to be picky, but I stated "high-point during impact", not, "highest point period." Think about it..
That article implies that the downswing action should be like snapping a towel - slowing the big muscles of the body, so that the clubhead can snap through the impact zone.
I much prefer Bobby Clampett's ideas as expressed in his book "The Impact Zone" - drive the hands fast and continuously (without letup throughout the downswing) towards an aiming point that is 4" in front of the ball. The release will happen automatically without any need for conscious thought - according to the physics expressed by NMGolfer. ( http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/release.htm )
No "snapping" action is needed to produce a smooth release - as the PingMan machine, with its constant velocity swing, demonstrates. Golfers who "snap" their release are probably more likely to have a rotational release, which may produce too much variability in clubface control through the impact zone.
Jeff.
I much prefer Bobby Clampett's ideas as expressed in his book "The Impact Zone" - drive the hands fast and continuously (without letup throughout the downswing) towards an aiming point that is 4" in front of the ball. The release will happen automatically without any need for conscious thought - according to the physics expressed by NMGolfer. ( http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/release.htm )
No "snapping" action is needed to produce a smooth release - as the PingMan machine, with its constant velocity swing, demonstrates. Golfers who "snap" their release are probably more likely to have a rotational release, which may produce too much variability in clubface control through the impact zone.
Jeff.
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