birdie_man
New
I like the image of shooting your arms off your torso in front of the ball.
hitting against a firm left side?? (SUBJECT of a NEW! Manzella YouTube!)
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Brian is 100% correct again of course. Once your body stops, the club/clubhead wants to continue moving (due to inertia and it's momentum) and thus even without adding any additional force, you can get a throwout action.
Just swing a club like a baseball bat in the horizontal plane and stop suddenly. You can feel the momentum of the clubhead and the release. To actually maintain this momentum past impact, you have to do a few things. Try it and list down the things that you will need to do. It's not too difficult.
Now the problem is when does your rotation stop. If you stop too early, the momentum of the clubhead is directed too far behind the ball and you probably get casting. If you stop the rotation too late, you probably won't be able to get a lot of 'snap'.
Hope this makes sense.
cheers,
daniel
Just swing a club like a baseball bat in the horizontal plane and stop suddenly. You can feel the momentum of the clubhead and the release. To actually maintain this momentum past impact, you have to do a few things. Try it and list down the things that you will need to do. It's not too difficult.
Now the problem is when does your rotation stop. If you stop too early, the momentum of the clubhead is directed too far behind the ball and you probably get casting. If you stop the rotation too late, you probably won't be able to get a lot of 'snap'.
Hope this makes sense.
cheers,
daniel
Daniell
I think that you are correct that it is critical to know when the rotation should stop (when the kinetic chain should snap). I think that if the rotation stops BEFORE impact, then there will be a greater likelihood of flipping and having the clubhead reach impact prior to the hands. I think that the rotation should stop just AFTER impact, so that one can sustain fast hands, and thereby sustain lag, through the impact zone.
Jeff.
I think that you are correct that it is critical to know when the rotation should stop (when the kinetic chain should snap). I think that if the rotation stops BEFORE impact, then there will be a greater likelihood of flipping and having the clubhead reach impact prior to the hands. I think that the rotation should stop just AFTER impact, so that one can sustain fast hands, and thereby sustain lag, through the impact zone.
Jeff.
Jeff,
What if the rotation simply SLOWS just before impact..
You can then release without flipping....
self-mastery
New
How does the maximum participation stroke user snap their kinetic chain?
jeffy
Banned
I agree that a rotational release is harder to time consistently; however, I thought you have been on record for some time as strongly preferring a rotational release (aka, a down-the-line, two-plane or a CF release) as opposed to a push release (aka, a rounded, one-plane or CP release); eg., Adam Scott.
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GolfVn - you write -: "If the rotation stops after impact (meaning the chain is snapped after impact) then what benefits would there be? Since the club is not released and throw out action is too late (ball gone) ..."
You seem to believe that the snapping of the kinetic chain is REQUIRED for club release to happen. I believe that there is no necessary causal connection between snapping of the kinetic chain and club release. NMGolfer has demonstrated that the release is due to happen anyway (due to the club's acquistion of anglar momentum during the downswing) and that the release starts to happen before the kinetic chain snaps tight.
Jeff.
You seem to believe that the snapping of the kinetic chain is REQUIRED for club release to happen. I believe that there is no necessary causal connection between snapping of the kinetic chain and club release. NMGolfer has demonstrated that the release is due to happen anyway (due to the club's acquistion of anglar momentum during the downswing) and that the release starts to happen before the kinetic chain snaps tight.
Jeff.
jeffy
Banned
I just got out my Hogan vs. Snead dvd and frame-by-framed through their opening drives. I was shocked by how obvious the "braking" phenomena is as the club approaches impact. Hogan's left arm drops very quickly from about shoulder high to thigh high, then almost stops as the wrists uncock and the club is "released". Hogan's left hip firms up right at impact, whereas Snead's body fixes a few clicks earlier.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
This is what I am talking about!
There is a relavant concept, we discuss it, I research it.
I do a video and people improve.
ALL DISCUSSIONS SHOULD THEN BE ABOUT MY VIDEO, NOT SOME BOOK FROM 1959, ETC.
Good job, Dodger!
Consider the following statement-: "I was shocked by how obvious the "braking" phenomena is as the club approaches impact. Hogan's left arm drops very quickly from about shoulder high to thigh high, then almost stops as the wrists uncock and the club is "released"."
How does one accurately determine the "true" velocity of the conjoined hand unit (which is at the end of the left arm) from the time it passes the right thigh (delivery position) to impact - as compared to its velocity in the time period just before the hands reach the outer border of the right thigh - that would allow one to assert that the conjoined hand unit slows down appreciably just before impact?
Jeff.
How does one accurately determine the "true" velocity of the conjoined hand unit (which is at the end of the left arm) from the time it passes the right thigh (delivery position) to impact - as compared to its velocity in the time period just before the hands reach the outer border of the right thigh - that would allow one to assert that the conjoined hand unit slows down appreciably just before impact?
Jeff.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Whew!
There are several VERY HIGH TECH 3D systems.
Go spend some time on one, Jeff. If you can hit a shot—so to speak—you'll see how absolutely WRONG you are.
The CHAIN SNAPS in all effective swings.
There are several VERY HIGH TECH 3D systems.
Go spend some time on one, Jeff. If you can hit a shot—so to speak—you'll see how absolutely WRONG you are.
The CHAIN SNAPS in all effective swings.
jeffy
Banned
STRAW MAN! One doesn't need to "accurately determine the 'true' velocity" of anything when it is easy to determine the relative velocity. Each frame represents the same amount of time. In the course of two frames, the left arm traveled from the shoulder to the thigh. If my memory is correct (the dvd is at the office), it then took two more frames to travel from the thigh to impact, about a third of the distance in the same amount of time. Gotta be slower.
jeffy
Banned
Actually, you don't even need to go to the trouble of looking at a dvd. Check out the 1955 Hogan sequence Brian analyzed:
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7429&highlight=hogan+1955
Compare how far the hands travel from frame 7 to frame 8 compared to from frame 8 to frame 9: about half the the distance in the same amount of time.
Brian
I have no problem accepting that the kinetic chain snaps - and that the hips slow down in their forward motion as a golfer reaches impact. I can also understand the idea that the shoulders will also seriously slow down at some point in the downswing, or followthrough. My problem is that I cannot understand why the right shoulder has to slow down PRIOR to impact, and why the conjoined hand unit has to slow down PRIOR to impact.
My reasons for not understanding this point are multifactorial, and can be explained as follows.
Here is photograph of Ben Hogan as he nears impact.
I can see that his hips have "snapped" in the sense that there is no longer any forward motion of the pelvis ( the outer border of the left pelvis doesn't move left of the inner border of the left foot) and the pelvis is now moving around to the left (left hip clearing action) as he pivots to the left AGAINST a straightened left leg (firm left side). However, I cannot understand why the right shoulder should be slowing down at this EXACT time point in the downswing. I also cannot understand why the conjoined hand unit should be slowing at this EXACT point. Looking at the position of Ben Hogan's right shoulder as he nears-impact, it would seem that the right shoulder should still be moving fast down the RSP line at that point, and driving the conjoined hand unit forward via a straighening right arm/forearm. I also cannot see any visual slowing of the right shoulder when repeatedly looking at a number of swing videos of Ben Hogan's swing - although this is a very crude method of evaluating the speed of any body part (as crude as Jeffy's attempt to measure the "relative" speed of the conjoined hand unit by looking at the distance travelled by Hogan's hands in concurrent frames from a video taken at a slow rate of speed eg. 30 frames per second).
There is another major factor that biases my thinking about the issue of whether the conjoined hand unit slows in the late downswing, prior to impact, and that factor is this graph from Nesbit's study (calculated from the results of an ultra-high speed camera that can generate 500 frames/second).
This graph plots grip velocity from 0.3 seconds prior to impact to 0.3 seconds after impact, and the graph shows that grip velocity is maximum at impact. I presume that grip velocity is equivalent to conjoined hand velocity because the grip cannot move linearly faster than the conjoined hand unit. Now, if you believe that Nesbit's research findings are inaccurate, don't you have to explain why it is inaccurate AND provide alternative definitive-evidence that the conjoined hand unit slows down prior to impact in most/all golfers.
Finally, I cannot understand why there should be a necessary causal connection between any slowing of the conjoined hand unit prior to impact and the club release phenomenon. I think that nmgolfer has provided a very rational explanation for the release phenomenon (acquired angular momentum of the club that is due due to the fact that the linear force pulling the grip end of the club doesn't pass through the COG of the club + effect of gravity after the club passes the vertical position). His explanation explains the release phenomenon in a constant velocity conjoined hand unit swing ( eg. PingMan machine), and also in a steadily accelerating conjoined hand unit swing (like the subjects in Nesbit's study). Also, his SAME explanation would also easily explain the release phenomenon in a deceleration conjoined hand unit swing. Therefore, finding his explanation very rational/logical, I still cannot understand why some people believe that slowing of the conjoined hand unit is necessary for the occurrence of the release phenomenon. I am willing to change my thinking on this issue if someone can demonstrate that nmgolfer's explanation is invalid, AND can concurrently supply an alternative explanation that demonstrates a necessary causal connection between slowing of the conjoined hand unit in the late downswing (prior to impact) and the release phenomenon.
Always willing to explore alternative ideas.
Jeff.
I have no problem accepting that the kinetic chain snaps - and that the hips slow down in their forward motion as a golfer reaches impact. I can also understand the idea that the shoulders will also seriously slow down at some point in the downswing, or followthrough. My problem is that I cannot understand why the right shoulder has to slow down PRIOR to impact, and why the conjoined hand unit has to slow down PRIOR to impact.
My reasons for not understanding this point are multifactorial, and can be explained as follows.
Here is photograph of Ben Hogan as he nears impact.
I can see that his hips have "snapped" in the sense that there is no longer any forward motion of the pelvis ( the outer border of the left pelvis doesn't move left of the inner border of the left foot) and the pelvis is now moving around to the left (left hip clearing action) as he pivots to the left AGAINST a straightened left leg (firm left side). However, I cannot understand why the right shoulder should be slowing down at this EXACT time point in the downswing. I also cannot understand why the conjoined hand unit should be slowing at this EXACT point. Looking at the position of Ben Hogan's right shoulder as he nears-impact, it would seem that the right shoulder should still be moving fast down the RSP line at that point, and driving the conjoined hand unit forward via a straighening right arm/forearm. I also cannot see any visual slowing of the right shoulder when repeatedly looking at a number of swing videos of Ben Hogan's swing - although this is a very crude method of evaluating the speed of any body part (as crude as Jeffy's attempt to measure the "relative" speed of the conjoined hand unit by looking at the distance travelled by Hogan's hands in concurrent frames from a video taken at a slow rate of speed eg. 30 frames per second).
There is another major factor that biases my thinking about the issue of whether the conjoined hand unit slows in the late downswing, prior to impact, and that factor is this graph from Nesbit's study (calculated from the results of an ultra-high speed camera that can generate 500 frames/second).
This graph plots grip velocity from 0.3 seconds prior to impact to 0.3 seconds after impact, and the graph shows that grip velocity is maximum at impact. I presume that grip velocity is equivalent to conjoined hand velocity because the grip cannot move linearly faster than the conjoined hand unit. Now, if you believe that Nesbit's research findings are inaccurate, don't you have to explain why it is inaccurate AND provide alternative definitive-evidence that the conjoined hand unit slows down prior to impact in most/all golfers.
Finally, I cannot understand why there should be a necessary causal connection between any slowing of the conjoined hand unit prior to impact and the club release phenomenon. I think that nmgolfer has provided a very rational explanation for the release phenomenon (acquired angular momentum of the club that is due due to the fact that the linear force pulling the grip end of the club doesn't pass through the COG of the club + effect of gravity after the club passes the vertical position). His explanation explains the release phenomenon in a constant velocity conjoined hand unit swing ( eg. PingMan machine), and also in a steadily accelerating conjoined hand unit swing (like the subjects in Nesbit's study). Also, his SAME explanation would also easily explain the release phenomenon in a deceleration conjoined hand unit swing. Therefore, finding his explanation very rational/logical, I still cannot understand why some people believe that slowing of the conjoined hand unit is necessary for the occurrence of the release phenomenon. I am willing to change my thinking on this issue if someone can demonstrate that nmgolfer's explanation is invalid, AND can concurrently supply an alternative explanation that demonstrates a necessary causal connection between slowing of the conjoined hand unit in the late downswing (prior to impact) and the release phenomenon.
Always willing to explore alternative ideas.
Jeff.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey JeffMann...
I rest my case.
The answer to your question is becuase IT DOES.
Provide me with one very good player with a kinetic chain graph that shows otherwise, and the discussion will re-open, and I'll buy you a dinner at Ruth's Chris'
Otherwise....
The MACHINES have spoken.
I rest my case.
The answer to your question is becuase IT DOES.
Provide me with one very good player with a kinetic chain graph that shows otherwise, and the discussion will re-open, and I'll buy you a dinner at Ruth's Chris'
Otherwise....
The MACHINES have spoken.
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