Hitting down - Ben Doyle video

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Dentman

New
Can anyone help with a long time, ingrained, swing fault that has been holding my progress back for a number years.

Basically, I have sweeping type, upward, swing action that I just can’t seem to break. I usually out drive my playing partners, but it’s all carry due to the very high ball flight and there is very little roll. Whilst I can live with the drives, my iron play is killing my game. I never take a divot, so when on a tight fairway, unless my timing and contact is spot on, I either hit it fat or thin - usually fat. Even when I hit the ball clean, my distance suffers big time as there is no compression - 140 yard 7 iron is about the norm. I have had many lessons, from a number of pro’s, but none have been able to cure me.

If you want to see what my type of swing action looks like, there is great video on Lynn Blake’s site of Ben Doyle trying his best to get some poor guy to hit ball then turf.:

www.lynnblakegolf.com/Video/Doylelesson3.wmv

This guy is not me, I might add, but the swing fault is identical. The video does take an age to download, but is well worth the wait, as it shows what a live lesson with Mr Doyle is really like.

So here is the challenge - how would you get this guy, or me, to swing DOWN instead of UP?

Hope someone can help before I hang up the clubs for good.
 
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EdZ

New
use a broom to learn the 'wedges'

then hit chip shots with the feet a couple inches apart, ball off the right edge of your right foot, weight ALL left, left arm and club inline (left wedge) and face square to slightly hooded.

Also, just practice taking swings with no ball, but making a divot where you are looking
 
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6bee1dee

New
It might help if you see in your mind what the shape of the swing looks like. Lynn Blake starts his lessons with the Geometry of the Circle. I do believe once the mind knows the shape, the hands will too.

The swing is shaped like a circle, not a oval or any other closed shape with a flat side. A circle has low point. The ball must be positioned on the inside of the low point or before the low point is reached by the clubhead. This guarantees a downward strike onto the ball since the club is still traveling down to reach its geometric low point.

The swing plane is on an incline- image a dish or saucer on its side. One point makes contact with the ground. The ‘Plane Line’ runs horizontally along the ground and this one point of the circle should be slightly under the ‘Plane Line’- this becomes the low point plane line. It is this line- LPPL that needs to be attack. The ball being in the way will be struck and sent into the air.

As Ben says (is this PC still?) “Hit the ball to China.”

As I said, once the mind knows, so will the hands and Educated Hands is what TGM is about.
 
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Non-AuthorizedTGM

New
6B,

As Keith Clearwater...told me of a story when he was working with Ben...while attending BYU...He's in Ben's living room....swinging and Ben is telling him to "Take a Divot!"...so Keith just keeps striking the floor with the clubhead...Ben's voice increases steadily in volume."No...Take a divot!!!"...Keith swings again hits the floor harder...Ben's says"TAKE A DIVOT" so Keith takes a cut and digs a DIVOT in Ben's Carpet...Ben replies in a soft voice...."Good...Good...Took a Divot ...see."

Now you know ...this story is either 100% true... or... it might be exaggerated...but the point is well taken...don't ya think...At the very least it is funny as he77!!!

NAT
 
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Mike O

New
One factor is that you need the dead-weight feel of clubhead lag.
Question: If that feel is sensing the acceleration of the clubhead- where do you feel like that force is directed at the ball in relation to the equator of the ball- I'm not asking theoretically I am asking in your swing where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball?

For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel?

Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned?

While addressing the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line - if you maintain you lead wrist (let's assume your a right handed player - so we're referring to your left wrist)- if you don't move your wrist- but extended your fingers- is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)?

Please don't guess but analyze these before replying.
 
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6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by Non-AuthorizedTGM

6B,

As Keith Clearwater...told me of a story when he was working with Ben...while attending BYU...He's in Ben's living room....swinging and Ben is telling him to "Take a Divot!"...so Keith just keeps striking the floor with the clubhead...Ben's voice increases steadily in volume."No...Take a divot!!!"...Keith swings again hits the floor harder...Ben's says"TAKE A DIVOT" so Keith takes a cut and digs a DIVOT in Ben's Carpet...Ben replies in a soft voice...."Good...Good...Took a Divot ...see."

Now you know ...this story is either 100% true... or... it might be exaggerated...but the point is well taken...don't ya think...At the very least it is funny as he77!!!

NAT
Click to expand...
These are the kind of TGM stories I want in my documentary.

Sounds like Ben.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
All of the above ideas are good...but NONE will make the student/golfer HAVE to learn to "hit the inside-aft quadrant on the way down to low point."

Try this....

Learn to swivel with a flat left wrist like the picture in my Never Slice Again article:
octpic8.gif


If you get to this 'spot,' you HAVE to "do it right" or you will smother hook it.

;)
 
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EaglesNest

New
Why don't you do what Ben is telling him to do. Hit the tire, dig divots, hit the sand, do all those drills until you get it. And another thing don't quit until you do, there is alot of good players out there who would have nearly dug enough divots to get to China before they got it right.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
If you do it my way (which I adapted from Ben)...you will learn it faster.

Teaching—real teaching—is figuring out a way....not: "Just keep doing the drills, and one day, it will all sink in."

The teachers who 'teach' that way, are no match for a real teacher.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Listen to brian, it works. Also, buy/download his Confessions of a Former Flipper video. Probably the best $12 you'll ever spend on your golf career.
 
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Dentman

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

use a broom to learn the 'wedges'

then hit chip shots with the feet a couple inches apart, ball off the right edge of your right foot, weight ALL left, left arm and club inline (left wedge) and face square to slightly hooded.

Also, just practice taking swings with no ball, but making a divot where you are looking
Click to expand...
Thanks Edz - I have spent many hours in the past doing the chipping drills but as soon as I go to a normal stance and a full swing, the sweeping action is still there.

To give you an idea how ingrained this fault is, if I try to 'just make a divot' (with no ball) I still can't do it!!
 
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Dentman

New
quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

It might help if you see in your mind what the shape of the swing looks like. Lynn Blake starts his lessons with the Geometry of the Circle. I do believe once the mind knows the shape, the hands will too.

The swing is shaped like a circle, not a oval or any other closed shape with a flat side.
Click to expand...

Thanks 6bee - I think you may have something here. In my minds eye, I see the path of the club head travelling through the ball in an elongated oval shape, hitting the ball towards the target.
Perhaps it is all between my ears.
 
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Dentman

New
quote:Originally posted by Mike O

One factor is that you need the dead-weight feel of clubhead lag.
Question: If that feel is sensing the acceleration of the clubhead- where do you feel like that force is directed at the ball in relation to the equator of the ball- I'm not asking theoretically I am asking in your swing where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball?

For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel?

Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned?

While addressing the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line - if you maintain you lead wrist (let's assume your a right handed player - so we're referring to your left wrist)- if you don't move your wrist- but extended your fingers- is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)?

Please don't guess but analyze these before replying.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike - Very hard questions to answer, but will give it my best shot.

1. where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball? - Below or under the equator.


2.For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel? - About half way between the left heeel and centre.


3. Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned? - square to the line, facing the target.

4. is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)? If the vertcal palm is 90 degrees and facing the ground is 0 degrees, I would say mine is 60 i.e. my vee points between my right ear and shoulder.

Hope this info helps.
 
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Dentman

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

All of the above ideas are good...but NONE will make the student/golfer HAVE to learn to "hit the inside-aft quadrant on the way down to low point."

Try this....

Learn to swivel with a flat left wrist like the picture in my Never Slice Again article:
octpic8.gif


If you get to this 'spot,' you HAVE to "do it right" or you will smother hook it.

;)
Click to expand...

Many thanks Brian - I am in your beta program and have the 'Do it right' 'Never slice again' and the 'flipper' videos.

In the flipper video you hit a ball with your plane board just a behind the ball i.e a very steep attack. If i tried that, I would be hitting the bottom edge of the BACK of the board!!

This is the concept I just don't get. If I make a good pivot behind the ball, with my spine leaning away from the target, how on earth do I get the club to the ball without hitting the plane board?

At the top of the swing, if I do your tilt, my club would just slam into the BACK of the board, every time, because the right shoulder is moving down.

The only way I can see me missing the palne board and getting to the ball, is to do a HUGE lateral lunge of the upper body, towards the taget, before I swing down - This can't be right, can it?

There must be something very wrong with my perception of the swing - I am totally lost!
 
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cdog

New
Since you got the flipper video, go to that section with the plane board, after listening to Brian explain the concept, step through the actual swing on step at a time, look at his action.
The point Brian is making is about throwaway, thats what you need to understand. If he had ANY throwaway doing the drill, he would hit the board.
Break down that drill and work on it in super slow motion, notice that if you do anything with your hands besides hold on, you probably wont be able to do it.

Not doing anything with the hands is hard to do for some, first you got to understand the concept, then you must engrain that into your system. Also being ball bound or having the hit complex makes this extra hard to accomplish.
 
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EaglesNest

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

If you do it my way (which I adapted from Ben)...you will learn it faster.

Teaching—real teaching—is figuring out a way....not: "Just keep doing the drills, and one day, it will all sink in."

The teachers who 'teach' that way, are no match for a real teacher.
Click to expand...

I would love to see a video taped lesson of you teaching a student in a complete rebuild from the start.Now there's an idea.;)
 
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PChandler

New
Dentman

This is just a guess. But have you done a lot of range time hitting off mats instead of grass? Especially in the early years of your golf life?

"Basically, I have sweeping type, upward, swing action that I just can’t seem to break."

You and me both brother. When I first started, I was living in Hawaii and the first lesson I took, the old Pro told me not to use his driving range which was usually off of mats and to go to another range that was usually off of the grass. I did not take his advice and ended up being a range rat beating balls off the mats and never working on the short game. As a result, I had no short game and could only hit a decent shot (as in result) off a tee. 10 years later, I looked like that poor guy you referenced in the Doyle lesson video, when one of the instructors at the Destin Bash at the Beach tried to get me to simply hit down on the ball and take a divot with a short chip stroke. I could not do it. We both eventually gave up. He went on to another student that might be able to grasp it...I went back to a hitting a full shot just like that guy in the video was doing. I rationalized that I just don't take divots but hits decent full shot. Wrong!

OK. Now I get it. Impact dynamics. Down out and forward. Ball-turf. Hit the little ball before the big ball. Take a divot after you hit the ball. Hit out to right field. Down! Down! Down! Mash it. Obliterate the straight plane line. Compression. Sizzle. And stay away from the mats. You and me both brother. Good luck.

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This is an edited add-on. A big ah ha moment (egg cracking) came when I was watching a video that has been talked about on this forum. Explosive Golf by Jacobs. Anyway he has a section on the design of the golf club. The golf club is designed to be leaning forward and to be struck down on the ball. If you are not doing this then you are not using the club the way it designed to be used. In other words, down, out, and forward is the ONLY way to hit the ball (without compensations or unintended consequences).

PChandler
 
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