Hitting down - Ben Doyle video
- Thread starter Dentman
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Posted - 07/31/2005 : 03:57:31
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mike O
One factor is that you need the dead-weight feel of clubhead lag.
Question: If that feel is sensing the acceleration of the clubhead- where do you feel like that force is directed at the ball in relation to the equator of the ball- I'm not asking theoretically I am asking in your swing where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball?
For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel?
Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned?
While addressing the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line - if you maintain you lead wrist (let's assume your a right handed player - so we're referring to your left wrist)- if you don't move your wrist- but extended your fingers- is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)?
Please don't guess but analyze these before replying.
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Thanks Mike - Very hard questions to answer, but will give it my best shot.
1. where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball? - Below or under the equator.
2.For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel? - About half way between the left heeel and centre.
3. Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned? - square to the line, facing the target.
4. is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)? If the vertcal palm is 90 degrees and facing the ground is 0 degrees, I would say mine is 60 i.e. my vee points between my right ear and shoulder.
Hope this info helps.
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Dentman,
Thanks for the feedback.
There was a reason that the first question was first- it was my biggest concern for you- given your "problem". Your answer- "at or below the equator" was my guess on what your answer would be given your "problem". Regardless of where the clubface hits the ball- which is below the equator (due to the loft on the clubface), it is important that you understand that the clubhead lag does not sense clubface loft/clubface- it senses the clubhead- and since you want to hit the ball on the downswing- while the clubhead is still accelerating- you should definitely be sensing the clubhead lag hitting the ball ABOVE the equator- moving DOWN. To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
Given your other answers- sounds pretty good- just realize that if your clubface is square at address- with you having your grip- when you move it forward to impact fix and the face is still square that the grip is weaker- i.e. the shaft rotates- if you keep the face square and move the shaft towards the target or away from the target. So you're grip could be a little weak. Bottom line- weak grips or open clubfaces "can" make one decelerate in order to let the clubface square- thereby causing throwaway and not allowing you to hit down and accelerate- otherwise you instinctively know that the ball would go to right field. So as you work on hitting down- I would rather see your grip alittle stronger and your clubface more closed- but that's your call since I can't see your set-up and by the sounds of it you might be fine.
Good Luck!
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mike O
One factor is that you need the dead-weight feel of clubhead lag.
Question: If that feel is sensing the acceleration of the clubhead- where do you feel like that force is directed at the ball in relation to the equator of the ball- I'm not asking theoretically I am asking in your swing where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball?
For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel?
Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned?
While addressing the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line - if you maintain you lead wrist (let's assume your a right handed player - so we're referring to your left wrist)- if you don't move your wrist- but extended your fingers- is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)?
Please don't guess but analyze these before replying.
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Thanks Mike - Very hard questions to answer, but will give it my best shot.
1. where do you sense that you are directing that force/weight in relation to the equator of the ball? - Below or under the equator.
2.For a 5-iron with feet shoulder width apart- where is the ball in relation to your left heel? - About half way between the left heeel and centre.
3. Assuming you address the ball with the clubshaft perpendicular to the plane line- where is the leading edge of your clubface aligned? - square to the line, facing the target.
4. is your palm of your hand vertical to the ground? Facing the ground? or if something in between that 90 degree range- how many degrees from vertical is the left hand (palm)? If the vertcal palm is 90 degrees and facing the ground is 0 degrees, I would say mine is 60 i.e. my vee points between my right ear and shoulder.
Hope this info helps.
___________________________________________________________
Dentman,
Thanks for the feedback.
There was a reason that the first question was first- it was my biggest concern for you- given your "problem". Your answer- "at or below the equator" was my guess on what your answer would be given your "problem". Regardless of where the clubface hits the ball- which is below the equator (due to the loft on the clubface), it is important that you understand that the clubhead lag does not sense clubface loft/clubface- it senses the clubhead- and since you want to hit the ball on the downswing- while the clubhead is still accelerating- you should definitely be sensing the clubhead lag hitting the ball ABOVE the equator- moving DOWN. To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
Given your other answers- sounds pretty good- just realize that if your clubface is square at address- with you having your grip- when you move it forward to impact fix and the face is still square that the grip is weaker- i.e. the shaft rotates- if you keep the face square and move the shaft towards the target or away from the target. So you're grip could be a little weak. Bottom line- weak grips or open clubfaces "can" make one decelerate in order to let the clubface square- thereby causing throwaway and not allowing you to hit down and accelerate- otherwise you instinctively know that the ball would go to right field. So as you work on hitting down- I would rather see your grip alittle stronger and your clubface more closed- but that's your call since I can't see your set-up and by the sounds of it you might be fine.
Good Luck!
birdie_man
New
Mike O, I agree...mats CAN do bad things I think- if you don't know what to watch for and how to fix it. Sometimes JUST hitting down more doesn't do the trick, as I've found from my own experience. I had a similar problem of very high shots and very right shots (ball did go lower when I played it back...but it would go further and further right) when practicing indoors last winter.
Dentman, can you answer me a few questions...
1. Do you have a hard time squaring the clubface?...and is it worse for short irons/a back-in-stance ball position?
2. Would you say you have a flat swing?
3. Toma</u>to or Tomaw</u>to?
-Paul[8D]
Dentman, can you answer me a few questions...
1. Do you have a hard time squaring the clubface?...and is it worse for short irons/a back-in-stance ball position?
2. Would you say you have a flat swing?
3. Toma</u>to or Tomaw</u>to?
-Paul[8D]
Birdie-man
1. short irons off a tight lie are a nightmare for me - I can hit a long straight drive, sweep a great three wood of the deck, but put me 100 yards from the green, in the middle of the fairway and I have no confidence - fat city! Squaring the club face is not a real problem, my ball flight neither draws or fades - if it is not fat, it is high and straight.
2. my swing is not flat. I was recently put on the TalorMade Motion Analysis system at the Belfry (really high tech stuff). The pro said my back swing was spot on. Of course the system could not detect my fat shots, as it was done indoors on a mat!!
3. the correct pronunciation is tomawto of course
quote:
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Originally posted by Mike O
To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
[/quote]
Thanks Mike - to hit the ball where you suggest would seem like hammering it straight into the ground to me - but I suppose that is the problem I have. Perhaps by just seeing the strike in a new way will steepen my delivery path.
I have just found a range, not too far away, that allows you to hit off grass for a small extra fee - looks like I'm going to be an outdoor, divot digging, range rat for a while!
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Originally posted by Mike O
To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
[/quote]
Thanks Mike - to hit the ball where you suggest would seem like hammering it straight into the ground to me - but I suppose that is the problem I have. Perhaps by just seeing the strike in a new way will steepen my delivery path.
I have just found a range, not too far away, that allows you to hit off grass for a small extra fee - looks like I'm going to be an outdoor, divot digging, range rat for a while!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Put a penny about 2 inches infront of your ball on a mat.
Hit the BALL and the PENNY.
Hit the BALL and the PENNY.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike O
To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
[/quote]
Thanks Mike - to hit the ball where you suggest would seem like hammering it straight into the ground to me - but I suppose that is the problem I have. Perhaps by just seeing the strike in a new way will steepen my delivery path.
I have just found a range, not too far away, that allows you to hit off grass for a small extra fee - looks like I'm going to be an outdoor, divot digging, range rat for a while!
1) Hitting off grass is a great start
2) "hammering it straight into the ground" - with the feel of the "above equator" contact point, with the feeling for you that the face is much more hooded than you would normally feel- since you normally don't have a descending blow- are all areas that will help you- including all the other posts mentioned in this thread- but you'll need to work your way through some really ugly shots on your way to the next level- be prepared for that- as the rest of your movement is integrated to your "up" clubhead movement versus the "down" clubhead movement. it will take time for the rest of your movement to integrate with the new "intent/goal" of your movement. Short shots are a good place to start- chip shots with the feeling of the lag directed at an above equator point on the ball. Then throw in some longer chips, pitches to full shots with a 9 iron- ball first then a steak divot. Slowly over periods of weeks of work, you can work more and more down through the set. Finally, send your lesson check to Brian- for having a forum where you can get so much good feedback from everyone regarding your swing problems.
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Originally posted by Mike O
To properly hit down on the ball say with an 8 iron- you should be trying to have the clubhead lag directed say 1/3 of the way from the equator to the top of the ball- driving it from that point into the ground. That's your impact point your striving for in relation to feel of the clubhead lag.
[/quote]
Thanks Mike - to hit the ball where you suggest would seem like hammering it straight into the ground to me - but I suppose that is the problem I have. Perhaps by just seeing the strike in a new way will steepen my delivery path.
I have just found a range, not too far away, that allows you to hit off grass for a small extra fee - looks like I'm going to be an outdoor, divot digging, range rat for a while!
1) Hitting off grass is a great start
2) "hammering it straight into the ground" - with the feel of the "above equator" contact point, with the feeling for you that the face is much more hooded than you would normally feel- since you normally don't have a descending blow- are all areas that will help you- including all the other posts mentioned in this thread- but you'll need to work your way through some really ugly shots on your way to the next level- be prepared for that- as the rest of your movement is integrated to your "up" clubhead movement versus the "down" clubhead movement. it will take time for the rest of your movement to integrate with the new "intent/goal" of your movement. Short shots are a good place to start- chip shots with the feeling of the lag directed at an above equator point on the ball. Then throw in some longer chips, pitches to full shots with a 9 iron- ball first then a steak divot. Slowly over periods of weeks of work, you can work more and more down through the set. Finally, send your lesson check to Brian- for having a forum where you can get so much good feedback from everyone regarding your swing problems.
Forgot to mention in my previous post- that as you work to hit down on the ball- you will hit some shots really fat. That will make you want to go back to "sweeping" the ball- as it's one possibility that you have ingrained hitting up- to stay away from the really bad fat shots of the past- limiting your ability to get much better but having the sense that your reducing the potential of the really embarrassing fat shot. So keep plowing up the soil and it should get better.
Fellas, Mike O is one of the BEST! Put this under your pillow and the compression fairy will make a visit to your game tonight.
Mike O,
Thanks for the post! Do you adjust the 1/3 the way up for the longer irons more toward the equator? Also, are you focusing your awarness towards the clubhead, clubface, hands or just force in general?
Thanks!
Richard
Richard,
Thanks for the nice comment- I don't know about one of the best- but my hope is that out of all this information on this thread- Dentman- may find something that gets him moving more in the direction, towards the goal that he would like to achieve.
Regarding your questions:
1) Adjust your aim of force for different clubshaft lengths?- Yes. Certainly seems like the shorter shafts allow more delayed releases and create more of a downward blow than the longer shafts-less downward. That's why it's important for dentman to adapt the new movement in with shorter clubs- easier to accomplish and promotes the proper downward motion much better.
2) Primarily focusing on the lag/force and direction of it - but during the learning process- 1) the force (lag) 2) the hands (lag) 3) the clubface (more hooded than you're use to), may all be areas that you would use to improve the movement.
Thanks for the nice comment- I don't know about one of the best- but my hope is that out of all this information on this thread- Dentman- may find something that gets him moving more in the direction, towards the goal that he would like to achieve.
Regarding your questions:
1) Adjust your aim of force for different clubshaft lengths?- Yes. Certainly seems like the shorter shafts allow more delayed releases and create more of a downward blow than the longer shafts-less downward. That's why it's important for dentman to adapt the new movement in with shorter clubs- easier to accomplish and promotes the proper downward motion much better.
2) Primarily focusing on the lag/force and direction of it - but during the learning process- 1) the force (lag) 2) the hands (lag) 3) the clubface (more hooded than you're use to), may all be areas that you would use to improve the movement.
swingeasttowest
New
Try this, address the ball but stand on just your left foot and place your right foot back and on your tippy toe. Try easy shots thinking swing down and to the left while uncock and roll your left.........Make sure your on grass. Watch the pros on where their arms swing....Use a tee at first.....
Dentman
One other thought has helped me recover from the upward sweep movement. For years I had strived for "staying behind the ball" based on pop instruction. This has caused, if not promoted, swaying off the ball at Startup.
1-L #1 The Stationary Post (player's head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc). Remember that "A Stationary Head" is one of the Three Essentials.
This is what Yoda/HoleNone says on his forum. "It is extremely difficult to get your Hands well forward through Impact with your Head hanging back and down over your right Foot."
In my case, I am working against a faulty pivot in my attempt to hit down and take a divot. But every once in a while I can "compress" the ball and it sounds great!
Good Luck.
PChandler
One other thought has helped me recover from the upward sweep movement. For years I had strived for "staying behind the ball" based on pop instruction. This has caused, if not promoted, swaying off the ball at Startup.
1-L #1 The Stationary Post (player's head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc). Remember that "A Stationary Head" is one of the Three Essentials.
This is what Yoda/HoleNone says on his forum. "It is extremely difficult to get your Hands well forward through Impact with your Head hanging back and down over your right Foot."
In my case, I am working against a faulty pivot in my attempt to hit down and take a divot. But every once in a while I can "compress" the ball and it sounds great!
Good Luck.
PChandler
DDL- I visualize the center/sweetspot making contact with the ball above equator with the ball- but obviously that's not happening- due to the loft the actual clubface is hitting the ball below the equator. So although it's just the clubhead moving down into the ball- I do visualize the clubface being perpendicular to the downward movement of the clubhead movement that corresponds to the 1/3 above equator contact point for say an 8 iron. To summarize PChandler's post - you can't be afraid of having your weight left- or feel as if your ahead of the ball.
The information in this thread is ESSENTIAL to becoming a player. Remember golf is about sustaining and manipulating the LINE OF COMPRESSION. EC (ECox) showed me this one . . . helps you hit down and get the proper Magic of the Right Forearm. Hit chips with your club soled infront of the ball. You have to get your weight LEFT and leave it there. You have to get the club UP RFP. And starting infront of the ball helps you return there through the ball and hit down.
Get your weight left. STAY LEFT!!! Uncock the left wrist DOWN FULLY. FULL LEVER EXTENSION. Per Mr. K if you don't know if you hit down, YOU DIDN'T!
Thanks Mike O!
Get your weight left. STAY LEFT!!! Uncock the left wrist DOWN FULLY. FULL LEVER EXTENSION. Per Mr. K if you don't know if you hit down, YOU DIDN'T!
Thanks Mike O!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Just imagine a NO LOFT club to get your impact point.
Got it?
Got it?
Talk about getting left!!!
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/hogan_side_clip.html
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/hogan_side_clip.html
Thanks again PChandler - The thought of "staying behind the ball" has caused me a lot problems too. I don't see any of it in the Hogan clip posted by mb6606, just a really positive move forward.
As I said in a previous post, if I make the correct pivot on the backswing (spine tilted away from the target) then do the tilt, my head drops so far back, I find it almost impossible to get the hands infront of the ball on a decending path.
Looks like I haven't got to be afraid of 'getting left'.
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