Hitting down - Ben Doyle video

[Dentman]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Just imagine a NO LOFT club to get your impact point.

Got it?

Yes Brian, got it now.

I was struggling to see how the face of a wedge could impact the top of the ball - with that much loft, the club shaft would have to be parallel with the ground! A no loft club is a good image for me.

Whist I'm here, can I thank you for making available such a superb forum. To be able to access such knowledge and experience, from your self and other members, is a wonderful thing.

Best Regards

Dentman

 

[EdZ]

Indeed. This is Fun!

Thanks to all (especially FGI).

A broom is a great 'no loft' practice aid. It can show the wedges quite well.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Dentman
... if I make the correct pivot on the backswing (spine tilted away from the target) then do the tilt, my head drops so far back, I find it almost impossible to get the hands infront of the ball on a decending path.

And herein lies your error, Dentman. As a result of the steady Head, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) of the the great striker tilts his spine toward the target on the Backstroke, not away from it. Extensor Action stretching out the Left Arm and Shoulder 'wobble' disguises this action, but it is there. On the Downstroke, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) tilts the spine away from the target.

To begin the journey toward a true Three Dimensional Impact -- Downward, Outward and Forward -- address a short pitch Shot with your feet close together (heels nearly touching). Set your Weight left. Locate your Head in the dead center of your Feet and the Ball off the right heel. Your Head will be slightly in front of the Ball (and not behind it). With your Weight remaining left and your Head centered, swing to the Top and stop. Then, simply drop the Club onto the Ball. You will hit Down.

Promise.

 

[Dentman]

quote:Originally posted by holenone
As a result of the steady Head, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) of the the great striker tilts his spine toward the target on the Backstroke, not away from it. Extensor Action stretching out the Left Arm and Shoulder 'wobble' disguises this action, but it is there. On the Downstroke, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) tilts the spine away from the target.

Holenone - Thank you for contributing to this thread, it is indeed an honour.

Your comment above has me confused, to say the least. Could you please expand on how the 'ball striker' tilts his spine towards the target on the backswing?

 

[DDL]

Why was Turn only on the backswing, Slide(downswing), Turn preached as the correct hip motion/action on the various TGM sites? I too had this problem of my head tilted too far to the right, over my right foot, because I believe, I was consciously eliminating any hip slide to the right on the backswing.

 

[Mike O]

The hogan clip is great- and this thread is on fire! Dentman- you've got all the information here for your correction- from alot of different perspectives- kind of neat to see "all the solutions" so different but all dead on correct - in regards to fixing your problem.
Good Luck! P.S. Re-post with your successes

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Dentman
... if I make the correct pivot on the backswing (spine tilted away from the target) then do the tilt, my head drops so far back, I find it almost impossible to get the hands infront of the ball on a decending path.

And herein lies your error, Dentman. As a result of the steady Head, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) of the the great striker tilts his spine toward the target on the Backstroke, not away from it. Extensor Action stretching out the Left Arm and Shoulder 'wobble' disguises this action, but it is there. On the Downstroke, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) tilts the spine away from the target.

To begin the journey toward a true Three Dimensional Impact -- Downward, Outward and Forward -- address a short pitch Shot with your feet close together (heels nearly touching). Set your Weight left. Locate your Head in the dead center of your Feet and the Ball off the right heel. Your Head will be slightly in front of the Ball (and not behind it). With your Weight remaining left and your Head centered, swing to the Top and stop. Then, simply drop the Club onto the Ball. You will hit Down.

Promise.

Go to the Hogan clip. Put your cursor on Mr. Hogan's noggin. Exhibit A support Holenone's submission.

 

[mb6606]

You can save the Hogan clip by right clicking on the running clip. Then play one frame at a time in Quicktime.

 

[Mike O]

Dentman,
Tangent or Chord?

With your presumed current movement- your ball leaves as a tangent to the circle- once you get the hitting down part or combined with getting the hitting down part correct- you need to make sure the ball leaves the circle via a Chord- which is going to feel really strange for you- the club's going to be traveling down and out while the ball shoots far left of where it's normally starting off i.e. there will be a much greater divergence of clubhead and initial ball direction than you are used to. Separating clubhead flight versus ball flight will be quite eye opening.
Good Luck!

 

[Dentman]

quote:Originally posted by Mike O

Dentman,
Tangent or Chord?

With your presumed current movement- your ball leaves as a tangent to the circle- once you get the hitting down part or combined with getting the hitting down part correct- you need to make sure the ball leaves the circle via a Chord- which is going to feel really strange for you- the club's going to be traveling down and out while the ball shoots far left of where it's normally starting off i.e. there will be a much greater divergence of clubhead and initial ball direction than you are used to. Separating clubhead flight versus ball flight will be quite eye opening.
Good Luck!

Thanks again for help Mike O - your reference to tangents and chords has made me dig out my old maths books to find out the difference

If I am correct, what you are saying is that because of my sweeping attack on the ball, I am used to seeing the ball fly off at a tangent i.e. if I twirl a rock on a string and the string breaks, the rock flies off on a tangent to the plane of the circle - yes? But if I hit down and out, ball then turf, the ball will set off towards the target i.e. on a chord to circle.

Two questions:

How much in to out do I swing? i.e. if was hammering a nail through the ball, where would it be pointing?

Do I need to strengthen my left hand grip to make this happen?

Thanks again Mike

 

[PChandler]

"And herein lies your error, Dentman. As a result of the steady Head, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) of the the great striker tilts his spine toward the target on the Backstroke, not away from it. Extensor Action stretching out the Left Arm and Shoulder 'wobble' disguises this action, but it is there. On the Downstroke, the Weight Shift (Hip Slide) tilts the spine away from the target."

Oh. Did not understand this until now.. I might have been doing this in trying to maintain a "Stationary Head" but I did not understand it. Thanks Holenone! A bit more fog has lifted. This thread is fantastic!

Dentman...thank you for your original question. I knew my faulty pivot "was holding me back". Now I understand why.

PChandler

 

[Mike O]

You got the tangent/chord concept correct.

You can certainly experiment- with stronger grip/clubface etc- As I said earlier I would rather see it stronger than weaker- so experiment with it and see what the changes produce.

But the basic concept is this- if you are now hitting the ball at lowpoint- or sometimes after lowpoint- or sometimes just before lowpoint and you change your movement to hit more down on the ball- you're essentially moving the ball back further from lowpoint- not just moving it back at setup but changing the stroke so that you strike it at impact more downward. To still hit the ball at the same target - you've got a whole new set of impact requirements- and the ball must fly on a chord to reach your target (We're assuming a straight ball flight here)- as the clubhead travels down and out to lowpoint. It's just a side note- that I wanted you to be aware of- that if you're hitting more down- (because that is the most important change that you need) then you might notice that the clubhead and initial ball flight are significantly divergent compared to your "old" feel- and that's not only OK- but a sign you're on the right track- so stay with it.

Finally, as you work through these changes- you will have more power and less accuracy- you'll need to enjoy the power to stay with the changes and have patience as the accuracy and confidience in the new movement will take a while to develop.

 

[Mike O]

To clarify- "How much in to out do I swing?"

If you're athletically inclined- I think that if you get the down portion correct- and your goal oriented in regards to where you want the shot to go (always pick a target) that the in to out will take care of itself. So I wouldn't worry about it now - nor would I work on it. But I would be aware of the different sensations and different ball/clubhead divergence through impact - that happens as a result of the more descending blow.

 

[Mike O]

One more thought regarding the stronger grip.

What you want is to have the pressure points on the aft side of the shaft- including pressure point #4 on the aft side of the upper arm. In regards to your grip- and impact fix- I would recommend taking a 5 iron- put the clubhead against a solid post or edge of a wall- now push/pull forward towards the target- bending the shaft as much as possible. Can you change something to more fully support impact and bend the shaft more? Left thumb pad on aft side? I don't care what change it is- adjust your hands and body so that you find the most support and easiest position to bend the shaft- that's impact support. Then before each shot - practice bend the shaft- it will verify your pressure points for impact.

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by Mike O

One more thought regarding the stronger grip.

What you want is to have the pressure points on the aft side of the shaft- including pressure point #4 on the aft side of the upper arm. In regards to your grip- and impact fix- I would recommend taking a 5 iron- put the clubhead against a solid post or edge of a wall- now push/pull forward towards the target- bending the shaft as much as possible. Can you change something to more fully support impact and bend the shaft more? Left thumb pad on aft side? I don't care what change it is- adjust your hands and body so that you find the most support and easiest position to bend the shaft- that's impact support. Then before each shot - practice bend the shaft- it will verify your pressure points for impact.

Great post! Go to a clubfitter and get a dynamic lie fitting. Go to a G.O.L.F. specialist and get a dynamic grip/pressure point fitting.

Question: Mike O . . . You advised focusing on striking 1/3 the way up from the equator. Would you advise 1/3 up from the equator on the inside aft quadrant of the ball as well to cure an impotence in 3 dimensional impact?

Great thread!

 

[Dentman]

quote:Originally posted by Mike O


"adjust your hands and body so that you find the most support and easiest position to bend the shaft- that's impact support"

Mike O and other contributors - once again thank you for taking the time to help. I hope there are others following this thread that are gaining something from it. As PChandler indicated - the fog is lifting!

Mike – after trying your method of verifying pressure points and finding impact support, I can say it makes a lot of sense to me. I may well have been worrying unnecessarily about having to have a neutral grip.

With the mechanics of this new downward move pretty well sorted in my head now, I wonder if anyone could have a go at clarifying how the release works with this downward blow. I know this is an area that has been discussed many times, but for me the fog is so thick I can hear a foghorn sounding!

The emphasis on holding back an almost frozen bent right wrist, through impact is confusing. Doesn’t the little yellow book talk about the power of the un-cock and roll of the left wrist? If the left wrist un-cocks and rolls, then surely the right wrist ‘must’ loose some of it’s bend – yes?

I suppose what I am really asking is, is the right wrist held back just by lag, until the natural uncock and roll, or is the golfer using muscular effort to hold it back?

I apologise for the many questions - if it is too much, just say and I will go away.

 

[PChandler]

Dentman

Others will respond and get you on the right track but until then...

"The emphasis on holding back an almost frozen bent right wrist, through impact is confusing. Doesn’t the little yellow book talk about the power of the un-cock and roll of the left wrist? If the left wrist un-cocks and rolls, then surely the right wrist ‘must’ loose some of it’s bend – yes?"

Do a search on "Flying Wedges". The cocking (bending) right elbow allows the right wrist to remain bent and the left wrist to cock. Try this...put your palms together in front of your face like "prayer hands". Now take those "prayer hands" to impact fix alignments. Take the hands overhanging your left thigh and bend like you would for an inclined plane. Keep your right forearm onplane with the back of your right hand (level). Now take the "prayer hands" up to your right shoulder keeping your hands glued together with your right forearm and no pivot. If your left arm is bent stretch it taught with your right but maintain those "prayer hands". You just added "extensor action" as well.

Others will correct and add. Strive to set your wedges. Take those wedges up a plane and back down a plane and add a hinge action. Flat left, straight planeline, and lag. I don't think you need to reconstruct your movement. You had/have "impact issues". Do what you have been doing but do it down, out and forward through impact. You and me both brother. You and me both.

PChandler

 

[Mike O]

"I may well have been worrying unnecessarily about having to have a neutral grip"

I would agree- or would say that, the "stronger" position would be my personal preference.

Personally, if you've got lag and are hitting down- I wouldn't worry about "the wedges" etc- should take care of itself. Although, you definitely should not hold back the right wrist- You should have the amount of weight that you loaded on the pressure points- maintained past impact- via constant acceleration - dictated by your awareness of that constant weight.

Any more detail of what you should work on- or what would be important for you- probably would need to be done one on one- and not via a forum. Doesn't mean that you should stop asking questions though.

 

[Dentman]

quote:Originally posted by Mike O

Although, you definitely should not hold back the right wrist- You should have the amount of weight that you loaded on the pressure points- maintained past impact- via constant acceleration - dictated by your awareness of that constant weight.

Thanks Mike - that's all I needed to know.

Best of luck PChandler.

Regards

Dentman

 

[Mike O]

From Rundmc:
Question: Mike O . . . You advised focusing on striking 1/3 the way up from the equator. Would you advise 1/3 up from the equator on the inside aft quadrant of the ball as well to cure an impotence in 3 dimensional impact?
You definitely want to hit say a dimple or two in from the center line- I would just say in this context in regards to Dentman's issues that the down was the more important feature to focus on- but depends what you have ingrained and what's not ingrained, certainly inside aft might be a good area to focus on.