Hogan's inspiring Clip

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Brian Manzella

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jeffy

jeffy

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I suppose Skee Reigel has some kind of horse in the race, too. From James Dodson's Ben Hogan: An American Life, page 313 (recalling the 1951 Masters, where he finished second to Hogan):

"'I remember playing a practice round or two with him about then,' says Skee Reigel, 'and thinking, if he was great before the accident, he was even better now. Ben's control of the ball was now basically unearthly.'"

Snead must also have a horse. From page 328 (recalling the 1952 Masters):

"Ben's ball-striking had never been better at that time, but a lot of folks didn't realize that his putter really started acting up in '52 and '53."

As well as Herbert Warren Wind, page 341 (watching Hogan practice at Tamarisk in early 1953):

"The golf shots I watched him hit that morning were as fine as I'd ever seen him make. I recall thinking-I even remarked as much to him during our lunch-that this had to be unwelcome news to the rest of the Tour. He just smiled at that. Here he was out in the desert, with no one watching, getting himself into the finest playing condition of his career."

Looks like Hogan himself must have a horse in this race: from page 346 (describing play in the third round of the 1953 Masters):

"On 13, Ben hammered his finest drive of the tournament-the best drive of his life, he told the Associated Press afterward-a curving rope that flew 270 yards and drew magnificently around the dogleg of the famous par-5 hole."

From page 348 (at the conclusion of the 1953 Masters):

"In the crowded locker room, Hogan sipped a cold beer and admitted he'd never struck the ball better over seventy-two holes of competition."

Obviously, these sentiments are at odds with Hogan saying he was a better "golfer" pre-wreck. However, Hogan isn't the only golfing great to make such an apparent contradiction: the consensus is that Nicklaus was a better ball-striker in the early-to-mid '60's, but Nickluas SAYS that he played his best golf from '71 to '75. Either way, Hogan is clearly on record that he discovered the "secret" in 1946, so he obviously had it well-ingrained by '48/'49, perhaps more so then is seen in the Power Golf sequences, which were probably shot in 1947 (the book was published in April 1948).
 
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Brian Manzella

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jeffy said:
I suppose Skee Reigel has some kind of horse in the race, too. From James Dodson's Ben Hogan: An American Life, page 313 (recalling the 1951 Masters, where he finished second to Hogan):

"'I remember playing a practice round or two with him about then,' says Skee Reigel, 'and thinking, if he was great before the accident, he was even better now. Ben's control of the ball was now basically unearthly.'"

Snead must also have a horse. From page 328 (recalling the 1952 Masters):

"Ben's ball-striking had never been better at that time, but a lot of folks didn't realize that his putter really started acting up in '52 and '53."

As well as Herbert Warren Wind, page 341 (watching Hogan practice at Tamarisk in early 1953):

"The golf shots I watched him hit that morning were as fine as I'd ever seen him make. I recall thinking-I even remarked as much to him during our lunch-that this had to be unwelcome news to the rest of the Tour. He just smiled at that. Here he was out in the desert, with no one watching, getting himself into the finest playing condition of his career."

Looks like Hogan himself must have a horse in this race: from page 346 (describing play in the third round of the 1953 Masters):

"On 13, Ben hammered his finest drive of the tournament-the best drive of his life, he told the Associated Press afterward-a curving rope that flew 270 yards and drew magnificently around the dogleg of the famous par-5 hole."

From page 348 (at the conclusion of the 1953 Masters):

"In the crowded locker room, Hogan sipped a cold beer and admitted he'd never struck the ball better over seventy-two holes of competition."

Obviously, these sentiments are at odds with Hogan saying he was a better "golfer" pre-wreck. However, Hogan isn't the only golfing great to make such an apparent contradiction: the consensus is that Nicklaus was a better ball-striker in the early-to-mid '60's, but Nickluas SAYS that he played his best golf from '71 to '75. Either way, Hogan is clearly on record that he discovered the "secret" in 1946, so he obviously had it well-ingrained by '48/'49, perhaps more so then is seen in the Power Golf sequences, which were probably shot in 1947 (the book was published in April 1948).
Click to expand...

Let's play connect the dots. Ok?

Hogan and Nicklaus said they were better BALL STRIKERS when they were young.

I didn't see in person, but from my 25 CONTINUOUS YEARS of teaching and researching the golf swing, I believe the players. More dymanic swings. Period.

They learne dto play better, and Hogan learned to work the ball better. No doubt.

Jeff, you are big fan of a certain teacher. He loves to talk about the later Hogan swing. No biggie. Ballard liked the 5 lesson swing more too.

I like his swing JUST BEFORE The wreck.

Have a good one. Hope to see you soon.

Brian.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
Brian Manzella said:
Let's play connect the dots. Ok?

Hogan and Nicklaus said they were better BALL STRIKERS when they were young.

I didn't see in person, but from my 25 CONTINUOUS YEARS of teaching and researching the golf swing, I believe the players. More dymanic swings. Period.

They learne dto play better, and Hogan learned to work the ball better. No doubt.

Jeff, you are big fan of a certain teacher. He loves to talk about the later Hogan swing. No biggie. Ballard liked the 5 lesson swing more too.

I like his swing JUST BEFORE The wreck.

Have a good one. Hope to see you soon.

Brian.
Click to expand...

Power Golf is much more dynamic, obviously. That could well be why he liked it more: it gave him more to work with. No doubt there were shots Hogan couldn't play after the accident. Although I didn't think much of the recent book by one of John Schlee's assistants, the guy wrote that Hogan would belittle his post-accident swing in conversations with Schlee, saying "Why would you want to swing like a cripple?" Of course, this guy is peddling a swing that doesn't look like Hogan pre- or post-accident, so he's got a horse, too.

BTW, what a certain teacher I know pretty well likes about Hogan's swing is the pronation/supination that was part of the "secret" Hogan supposedly discovered in 1946, pre-accident. He particularly likes this look:

http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html

Another dude is now talking up changes that allegedly followed the accident. Makes some good points, although my trainer's reaction was that those changes might have been compensations for Hogan's injuries. If you ever review this dude's work, I'll look forward to seeing or hearing it, as the case may be.
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

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jeffy said:
Power Golf is much more dynamic. There were shots Hogan couldn't play after the accident. Hogan would belittle his post-accident swing in conversations with Schlee, saying "Why would you want to swing like a cripple?"
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I couldn't agree more with the above:

The Power Golf pattern was more dynamic and easier to learn.
Post accident his swing was anemic.
I can understand why he hated the pattern that he was forced to play with. Reminds me of the pain that Nicklaus and Palmer experience bunting the ball around in their elderly form.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
self-mastery said:
I couldn't agree more with the above:

The Power Golf pattern was more dynamic and easier to learn.
Post accident his swing was anemic.
I can understand why he hated the pattern that he was forced to play with. Reminds me of the pain that Nicklaus and Palmer experience bunting the ball around in their elderly form.
Click to expand...

For all the talk about one being easier or better, it is hard for me to see that much difference.

Anyhow, after watching the Hard Case from Texas vhs last night, I've concluded that this "I was a better player before the accident" is just Hogan being Hogan. What he is saying, I think, is "if you thought I was good post-accident (i.e., the best ball-striker of all-time), just think what I could have done if it had never happened." A valid point, but, come on: he says "I won a few tournaments after the accident." Oh, just three U.S. Opens in a four year span. It's false modesty.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
Jim Kobylinski said:
So many agendas in this thread and so little good information.
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Well, we all know your agenda, and, IMO, you haven't added any "good" information to this thread, so I guess you have a point.

I have sourced all of my "information", which I believe is reliable. Unless I missed it, no one has produced a source from the post-accident period, be it from Hogan himself, his peers, or the media, that backs up the notion that his ball-striking was better pre-accident. Hogan implies it in that Hard Case interview, but that is much later in life; IMO, if he had said such a thing at the time, everyone would have laughed and shaken their heads. As I've already explained, I think he was being the well-known Hogan "sphinx", who spoke in riddles sometimes.

By the way, I don't know what Brian and, I presume, you consider to be so great about the "pre-accident pattern", and I don't have an opinion of what, if anything, makes his post-accident swing better, so I don't see what "agenda" I can have, other than getting at the truth. As I have pointed out a couple of times, a certain well-known teacher that I'm friendly with delineates Hogan into the pre- and post-"secret" eras, not pre- and post-accident, so you are barking up the wrong tree there. I think some of you get a little paranoid at times.
 
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Brian Manzella

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Jeffy.

Did you KNOW Hogan?

Our great friend, Brent White, Woody-B-Dub on this forum, knew him quite well, even getting an impromptu lesson or two.

We are pretty well connected at BrianManzella.com

We don't need spin, we can teach.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
Brian Manzella said:
Did you KNOW Hogan?

Our great friend, Brent White, Woody-B-Dub on this forum, knew him quite well, even getting an impromptu lesson or two.

We are pretty well connected at BrianManzella.com

We don't need spin, we can teach.
Click to expand...

No; but I can read and reason for myself. Did Woody play with Hogan in 1948 and 1950? Middlecoff did, and he is unambiguous. Do you believe Middlecoff was spinning? Was Hogan spinning when he told reporters that his ball-striking at the 1953 Masters was his personal best for an entire tournament?

I've seen and heard the Hard Case interview. Dan Jenkin's repeats it pretty much in Ben Hogan: The Man Behind the Mystique. It wouldn't be a surprise if Hogan told Woody and others the same thing. But, I have concluded that, in this instance, Hogan WAS spinning. You're free to disagree, but I like my case better than yours.

As far as your teaching skills go, I've experienced them first-hand, as you may remember. They are very good. But teaching ability is, of course, completely irrelevant to this topic. Why do you keep pulling out that bludgeon on subjects totally unrelated to your teaching? It is beneath you.
 
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dodger

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This is an interesting exchange that may not have an answer. The best general, not just instruction,golf book I have read is Let er rip, by Gardner Dickinson. He discusses his close relationship with Hogan and how Hogan mentored him when he worked as an assistant pro for Hogan in Palm Springs in the early fifties. He debunks much of the common myths that surrounds Hogan's swing and what he thought. In particular he indicates that Hogan did not do as he said, particularly in regards to hip turn, stance and lag. After copying Hogan semi-successfully, Dickinson talks of seeing Toney Penna for lessons, freeing up his hip turn going back, going past parallel in the backswing and gaining forty yards, all elements that existed in the power-golf version of Hogan's swing. Choice, swing that hits the driver 290 and up, or one that hits it 240-260, albeit straight as a string. Nowadays, the choice is cleary the power golf swing. Check out this book if you can find it.
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
dodger said:
This is an interesting exchange that may not have an answer. The best general, not just instruction,golf book I have read is Let er rip, by Gardner Dickinson. He discusses his close relationship with Hogan and how Hogan mentored him when he worked as an assistant pro for Hogan in Palm Springs in the early fifties. He debunks much of the common myths that surrounds Hogan's swing and what he thought. In particular he indicates that Hogan did not do as he said, particularly in regards to hip turn, stance and lag. After copying Hogan semi-successfully, Dickinson talks of seeing Toney Penna for lessons, freeing up his hip turn going back, going past parallel in the backswing and gaining forty yards, all elements that existed in the power-golf version of Hogan's swing. Choice, swing that hits the driver 290 and up, or one that hits it 240-260, albeit straight as a string. Nowadays, the choice is cleary the power golf swing. Check out this book if you can find it.
Click to expand...

Let 'er Rip is one of my favorite golf books. Like you, I found Gardner's evolution away from Hogan quite interesting. He seemed to become more of a Snead follower later in life.
 
J

James Marshall (Hogan1953)

New member
Brian,

I remember reading one of your posts a few months ago talking about your preference for swings which "swing the club like a club" or something similar, i.e. the club only stays lined up with the left arm for a very brief moment post impact before going past it. As a consequence of the thread I was looking at some photos of Hogan swing sequences pre and post accident and for example if you look at "Power Golf" p69 with his driver the shaft is still lined up with his left arm and the clubhead is a good foot and a half past the ball. However, in the post-accident sequence in "The Methods of Golf's Masters", p 93, the shaft appears between the arms with the clubhead in a similar position. I think, if I interpret you correctly, that you prefer the pre-accident swing, would this be one aspect of that swing you like least?

Thanks,

James
 
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