Hogan's inspiring Clip

[self-mastery]

If that is what he said, people probably wouldn't have a problem. However, he said that Hogan had "the least amount of talent to play the game." While I can see why some may find that an insult to Hogan, I think it's just plain stupidity.

MEH!!!!

Don't chop my quote!!!
I SAID:

Hogan is the best example of pure will. He's probably the best player with the least amount of talent to play the game.

"Son, the answer's in the dirt." I hear you Ben.... I hear you.

What a soft bunch

What did I mean by this:

He had less natural talent than many of the other great players of the past and present. Hogan really earned his success and figured out his own way to do it. He didn't get by on talent alone like some players(people) do. We need myths, legends, unreachable heroes...

Hogan, KING of the tinkerers!!!

I laughed when reading everyone post how surprised they were to see how dynamic Hogan's power golf swing was... Do you guys just read autobiographies and debate swing theory?

Power golf era Hogan IS Hogan. Post P.G.E.H. is a compromised golfer working on will and PK.

 

[birdie_man]

"I laughed when reading everyone post how surprised they were to see how dynamic Hogan's power golf swing was... Do you guys just read autobiographies and debate swing theory?

Power golf era Hogan IS Hogan. Post P.G.E.H. is a compromised golfer working on will and PK."

Product Knowledge? Funny.

Anyway....I figured I would get this....

I just had never before seen that good of a full motion clip of his swing from that period. And have never seen him go after a drive quite like THAT. (I have said 100 times before this thread that Hogan IS dynamic BTW)

I do not own many golf videos. (physical pieces of golf media, per-se) I rely mostly on this convenient world-portal in my basement for information. My basement is very dark with no windows.

...

BTW- for the record of this fine forum, I am really just a brain with eyes and arms propped up on a barstool in front of the computer. I don't actually golf in real life.

(you might think it with how much I'm on this friggen inter-web AKA inter-land though....HU-HA!)

I (brain) also wear glasses somehow, have a mouth which I use solely for releasing my deranged laughs, and also have a beard. (from lack of hygeine) And of course a penis.

 

[birdie_man]

BTW if by talent you mean "natural, God-given aptitude for golf" then I agree with you.

And....he prolly IS King Of The Tinkerers. And/or Moe.

 

[magic43]

Wonder if there will be the same type of discussions on the golf forums some 60 years from now about Tiger and his golf swing? Maybe that is Hogan's real legacy to the game.

 

[David Alford]

<David~

Considering the Hogan influence and some opinions that he did not do what he said he did was Five Lessons a benefit for the average player?>

It should be, yes. The chapters on the grip, setup, and sequence of his swing are correct. But the unstated truths and errors will not get you 100% there.
FIVE LESSONS is a wonderfully written and tragically flawed book. I believe if the student doesn't get the whole truth in an entirely applicable way, progress will never be completed. I think it's safe to say, all other golf books to date fail to meet a similar standard. It's obviously hard, very hard, for a golf instruction book to be perfect.

 

[David Alford]

I want to clarify a point about my perspective on Hogan's talent. I never said he wasn't talented. Hogan was talented. But by hard athletic ability, IMO, he would be far from the top of elite athletes. The thing to concentrate on is how good his swing was when he was an old man. There is your clue as to how much raw physical ability is required to swing at a very high level.

That's a fact, I never lost sight of in my own tortuous journey. My advice is never sell yourself short. If something needs to be blamed, blame your current technique.

 

[tourdeep]

Do you guys just read autobiographies and debate swing theory?

After reading autobiographies and debating theories, I simply don't have time in the day to do anything else! I am back to studying another less talented, pull adjusted player with a less than mediocre swing. Then it's back to studying the cat who blocks.

Power golf era Hogan IS Hogan. Post P.G.E.H. is a compromised golfer working on will and PK.

Absolutely 100% disagree with the first portion of your statement!

As wonderful as he played in the 40's and the number of tournaments won, and even by the man's own admission of his pre accident play, post accident Hogan is Hogan. It defined him. To bounce back from the accident and win at the highest of levels cemented his place in history and his swing. He won the hearts of many. And to this day, it still does. This is probably representative of 99% of golfers who simply do not know Hogan's achievements unless they're diehards that adhere to question one, and we would not be here debating Snead, Hogan, Byron, etc. if we weren't,,,and why power golf might be better for some while fundamentals will work for others...

 

[birdie_man]

The thing to concentrate on is how good his swing was when he was an old man. There is your clue as to how much raw physical ability is required to swing at a very high level.

That's a fact, I never lost sight of in my own tortuous journey. My advice is never sell yourself short. If something needs to be blamed, blame your current technique.

This is a very good point.

 

[jeffy]

I already posted that Middlecolf wrote that the Hogan "aura" didn't really start, at least among the tour pros, until after the accident. In light of the Jenkin's quote posted by tourdeep, I thought I'd get out my copy of The Golf Swing by Cary Middlecoff to see if he specifically compared the quality of Hogan's ballstriking pre- and post-accident. Turns out he did, and the Power Golf devotees may not like it. From pages 80 and 81:

According to his subsequent statements on his hook-proof swing, he hit upon the method approximately between the seasons of 1947 and 1948. I recall that it was in 1948 that he told Johnny Revolta that he had finally found a swing that he didn't have to worry about. "I've really got it," he told Revolta. I played with Hogan a great many times that year, and while he won the U.S. Open and several other tournaments, he did not seem to me to be hitting the ball with anything like the authority that characterized his play in later years. He was getting the ball in the hole, as the saying goes, but he was missing a few fairways and having to scramble for pars on some holes, much as the rest of us were doing.

According to my memory, it was in 1950, after the accident, that he began showing us the kind of precision golf that set him apart. I vividly recall the last 36 holes at Merion in the 1950 U.S. Open. I was paired with him that long day, and I kept thinking that he was a far better tee-to-green golfer than I remembered from our many rounds together in 1948. It was in 1950 that he began to take on the miracle-man aura. Small crowds that included a number of his fellow pros would gather around him and try to watch his every move anytime he started hitting out practice balls. Many people had thought that he might never play golf again, let alone play markedly better than anyone else. Many thought that it would take him a while to recapture his old skill, but those of us who knew him well knew that he would not be out there unless he was sufficiently recovered. Right on through 1970, you could be certain that whenever Hogan walked on the first tee of a tournament, he felt himself at least as good a golfer as there was in the field.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan looked like a lot of us with the overswing in the "Power Golf Swing" that he used as a young player. Only after improving his swing based on his "Five Lessons" did he find control of the golf ball and success on the tour.
There is a terrific book by John Andrisani, "The Hogan Way" that details the work and effort that Hogan put into his swing changes. Also, for an excellent read try "Hogan" by Curt Sampson.

Totally wrong.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You have to know, to know.

Awesome. Poetry in motion. Agree with birdie that first swing, I didn't know he ever went after it like that. Many thanks, Chili!!

Funny, all I see is a REALLY STRAIGHT plane line.

Pretty is as pretty does. Trevino is JUST as "pretty" to me. Furyk too.

 

[Brian Manzella]

hogan may be the only player to be really succesful with nearly a true one plane golf swing.

Complete and Total BS.

Double-shift before and after.

 

[Brian Manzella]

ABSOULUTELY!

In the documentary a Hardcase for Texas, Hogan himself talked about the evolution of his golf swing. He states that in 48/49 his golf swing was at its best
that even though he won some tournaments after the crash he never hit the ball as well as he did during that period.

The only folks that have a problem with this FACT, is folks who don't TEACH what Hogan did pre-wreck, or like someone who doesn't more than someone who does.

Got it?

 

[Brian Manzella]

After he discovered the "secret" in 1946, his game went to another level. Up to that point, he was winning with his short game. Anyone who thinks he couldn't putt should look at his record in the early '40's. He was leading money winner in '40, '41 and '42 and Vardon trophy winner in '40 and '41 when he couldn't keep it on the planet.

However, his winning percentage went way up post-accident, particularly in the majors. I don't see how it is obvious that his pre-accident game was better. Apparently he said so, but, according to Middlecoff, his fellow pros didn't start gathering around and watch him practice until 1950.

Like I said before....a horse in the race.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan and talent.

If you believe that, fair enough. His secret was his right knee, he could control an 8 iron to within inches just by altereing the flexing his right knee. He stopped his over swing by pulling up his left thumb 2mm, which was the opposite of the conventional wisdom of this at the time, he reversed it. He altered the spin on the ball by hitting it on a different groove, I could go on, and on, and on. Hogan had talent in spades, when you talk about talent, he is right up there.

Hogan was an EXPERT card dealer, he had great hands. Obviously.

He had golf talent, too. Obviously.

But he had LESS talent than Nelson and Snead. Even he said that.

If you think his secret was his right knee, I have some land for sale just east of Paris Road in New Olreans.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hogan maintains those flying wedges deeper into the swing than anyone.

Because of HIS PIVOT!!!!!!

 

[jeffy]

Like I said before....a horse in the race.

What horse does Middlecoff have in the race?

 

[jgust]

jgust

Totally wrong.

Brian, I really enjoy your forum and your videos. I will yield to your expertise on the swing analysis I provided, the books however are both very good reading.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Funny, all I see is a REALLY STRAIGHT plane line.

Pretty is as pretty does. Trevino is JUST as "pretty" to me. Furyk too.

Are we talking about full swings, aren't we ?

Neither Furyk, nor Trevino, nor Snead, nor Nelson were or are capable of hitting 100% FIR and 100% GIR or close to it under pressure as far as I know. Your own words, Brian, are that the ball does not care if the swing is pretty or ugly - the final effect matters. And IMHO the best golfer (full swing) is that one who can control the ball and hit it where he wants. Only late Hogan (and perhaps autistic Moe Norman) could have achieved this goal in some great rounds of theirs.

The final effect for the ball was that Hogan's post-accident swing gave the most efficient and most repeatable ballstriking in the history of tournament golf on highest level. If I am wrong - please give other examples that I am not aware of. Or maybe you use other criteria for classifying the quality of full swings that I am not aware of...

And besides - it's also a very beautiful body motion for eyes - at least for mine.

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

More detail.

Brian, I really enjoy your forum and your videos. I will yield to your expertise on the swing analysis I provided, the books however are both very good reading.

Here is an old post, explaining mis position on his pre-wreck "Power Golf" swing and post-wreck "5 lessons" swing (I also believe that Hogan has a different swing just post wreck that was the best of all).

And (ahead of time) the Hoagn print is still available.

Here goes:

Tong,

So this (Power Golf time period)was apparently when he was hitting the hooks. The thing about the Hawk that blows me away is that even if Woods has more majors than everyone at the end of the day, the fact Hogan survived, let alone won 2 Major golf championships after that accident, is totally unbelievable.....

ColtsFan,

This lack of factual knowledge of Mr. Hogan's real history, is not your fault. Lots of folks have no idea about the man, or his history.

As for these photos:

They were taken in 1948 at Augusta National, and in the three years which ended in 1948, Ben Hogan won 30 tournaments.

30 tournaments

He later had "the accident" and made a well-publicized swing "change."

He won tournaments and Majors after the "wreck," but in his own words, NEVER hit it as well as he did before (like in these photos).

He played well and some say better, but he thought he scored and mangaged his game better.

Nonetheless, this sequence of Mr. Hogan that I have posted below, along with the signiture he signed my Hogan 5 Lessons book with, is for lots of great teachers, the best ever.

Enjoy!